[boatbums]

Pauline Soteriology. Would will the Twelve Apostles judging on twelve thrones say about that ? There was a reformed theology from Luther and others who created a new religious movement without divine authority almost five centuries ago. Obviously Romans was not clear to them. Since you have pledged yourself, as it were, to the reformers, and I rest in the holy catholic apostolic church, we will not agree and await the judgment of Messiah and the Apostles.

Why is it many FRoman Catholics seem so incapable of seeing others without placing them in tidy boxes with labels on the outside? Neither SR nor I "pledged" ourselves to the reformers. All we've been trying to do is show the reformers were NOT the originators of the doctrines of sola Scriptura and sola fide but that these were clearly taught IN scripture and were held by many of the very first church "fathers". How is it you can just ignore all the quotes and references that have been posted which proved that?

You have determined you will "rest" (pledge yourself?) in the Roman Catholic church. Fine, who's stopping you? Just as long as you acknowledge that there has been a development over time in your church's doctrines and many were unheard of in the early church and were NEVER taught by the Apostles. Can you do that? You presume your church has the "divine authority" to determine what is the truth - even in matters of faith and morals - and you place your faith in that view even in the face of contradicting or absent passages of Scripture. Again, you have that freedom - no one is going to burn you at the stake. Just know that you WILL be held accountable for the light you have been given and how you respond to it. You will not be able to deny that - and neither will we. I'm cool with that, are you?

WRT Pauline Soteriology, can you provide documentation that proves there was a comprehensive and official Roman Catholic doctrine on justification prior to the Council of Trent that authoritatively states we are justified by faith AND works? Because you cannot, we know that the RC condemnation of the Reformation doctrine of sola fide as a deviation from, and a "theological novum", established RC doctrine is bogus. Like Jaroslav Pelikan wrote,

When the reformers attacked this notion in the name of the doctrine of justification by faith alone—a doctrine also attested to by some medieval theologians and ancient fathers—Rome reacted by canonizing one trend in preference to all the others. What had previously been permitted (justification by faith and works), now became required. What had previously been permitted also (justification by faith alone), now became forbidden. In condemning the Protestant Reformation, the Council of Trent condemned part of its own catholic tradition." (Jaroslav Pelikan, The Riddle of Roman Catholicism (New York: Abingdon Press, 1959), pp. 51-52)

[af_vet_1981]

(Jaroslav Pelikan, The Riddle of Roman Catholicism (New York: Abingdon Press, 1959), pp. 51-52)

Did you know that when you appealed to this Lutheran pastor by a book he authored in 1959 that he converted to Orthodoxy in 1998 ? For most of his life Pelikan was a Lutheran and was an ordained pastor in that tradition. In 1998, however, he and his wife Sylvia were received into the Orthodox Church in America at the Chapel of St. Vladimir's Orthodox Theological Seminary in Crestwood, New York. According to family members (with some mild dislike of the conversion), his conversion followed his meeting Pope John Paul II. Members of Pelikan's family remember him saying that he had not as much converted to Orthodoxy as "returned to it, peeling back the layers of my own belief to reveal the Orthodoxy that was always there."[3] Delighted with this turn of phrase, he used it (or close variants) several times among family and friends, including during a visit to St. Vladimir's for Divine Liturgy, the "last before his death."[4]

Nevertheless, Pelikan was still ecumenical in many ways. Not long before his own death, he praised John Paul II in an article in the New York Times when the pope died in 2005:

It will be a celebration of the legacy of Pope John Paul II and an answer to his prayers (and to those of all Christians, beginning with their Lord himself) if the Eastern and Western churches can produce the necessary mixture of charity and sincere effort to continue to work toward the time when they all may be one.[5]

[af_vet_1981]

Why is it many FRoman Catholics seem so incapable of seeing others without placing them in tidy boxes with labels on the outside? Neither SR nor I "pledged" ourselves to the reformers. All we've been trying to do is show the reformers were NOT the originators of the doctrines of sola Scriptura and sola fide but that these were clearly taught IN scripture and were held by many of the very first church "fathers". How is it you can just ignore all the quotes and references that have been posted which proved that?

1. It seems to me there is hypocrisy in your first question as you use a label of your own choosing, "FRoman Catholics."
2. It seems to me the boat on which you have booked passage is anchored to the theology of the so-called reformers through Sola Fide and OSAS doctrines. You appealed to Martin Luther so to Luther you can go. You have no authority to teach me any doctrine. Should you choose to reveal the truth about the religious group with whom you assemble I will address their doctrine.
3. It seems to me your puzzlement at the inadequacy of the quotes and references to which you refer to effect a change in the reader shows they are insufficient to prove the case, perhaps even to yourself.

[af_vet_1981]

You have determined you will "rest" (pledge yourself?) in the Roman Catholic church. Fine, who's stopping you? Just as long as you acknowledge that there has been a development over time in your church's doctrines and many were unheard of in the early church and were NEVER taught by the Apostles. Can you do that? You presume your church has the "divine authority" to determine what is the truth - even in matters of faith and morals - and you place your faith in that view even in the face of contradicting or absent passages of Scripture. Again, you have that freedom - no one is going to burn you at the stake. Just know that you WILL be held accountable for the light you have been given and how you respond to it. You will not be able to deny that - and neither will we. I'm cool with that, are you?

I suggest you address any real desire to understand Catholic doctrine to Mrs. Don-O. I really think she can help you, if you will allow her. You need not be Catholic to meet us in the kingdom of heaven.