Posted on 12/14/2014 11:57:21 AM PST by ealgeone
The reason for this article is to determine if the worship/veneration given to Mary by the catholic church is justified from a Biblical perspective. This will be evaluated using the Biblical standard and not man’s standard.
Looking at their catechism, their claim to fame dealing with the Holy Spirit is that the Holy Spirit is called down by their priest and the Holy Spirit lands in the water that they are used to baptize with...Ergo, Holy Water...
There is no indwelling of the Holy Spirit...They are sprinkled with the Holy Spirit who is in the water...
Yes!
>> “written in the book at Baptism...” <<
.
Bad Joke!
Try “Written at the foundation of the worlds.”
But scripture says that names can be taken out!
All three!
You're missing the point. This isn't an issue of volume. It's about quality, or lack thereof. Coupled with the issue of intent. I'll let the individual protestants examine their conscience on what the intent of their posts are.
I've interacted with some wonderful protestants and while we may not have come to agreement their posts are taken into consideration and are appreciated for the spirit in which they are given. Which I can assure you does more for fostering that fellow Freeper dynamic you mentioned than the majority of posts by protestants.
I wonder how you can miss all the intentionally provocative threads posted BY Roman Catholics disparaging the beliefs of "Protestants" and extolling their own superior and elitist religion that ARE almost daily.
I don't miss them. What I don't agree with is your characterization of them. Most threads posted by Catholics are designed to answer such questions as this thread, and are often responsorial in nature, i.e,"Why Catholics Don't Worship Mary."
Once again you'll forgive me if I see the source of ignition coming from somewhere else.
I'd be real interested in seeing a comparison of how much money Catholics donate to Free Republic compared with those who aren't.
Why? Is this a version of, "he who pays the piper calls the tune?" If it somehow determine that Protestants give more than Catholics does this garner protestant more privilege on this site?
And, I will defend ANYONE'S right to post their thoughts on OPEN threads. That is the spirit of Free Republic and that freedom is even open to those who freeload and never donate a dime to this site - something JR does out of the kindness of his heart. If y'all don't like that, stay on your precious Caucus threads and you'll never have to worry about your beliefs being challenged.
As has been pointed out many times before, nobody has any rights here. Once again this posts confirms that the interest of the protestant contingent is not fostering some sort of Freeper fellowship. Numbers, money, rights. None of this is applicable here.
At first I thought my eyes were deceiving me because in one post I read that Catholics don’t bow or pray to her, and then I see a picture of bowing/kneeling/worshiping and I wondered if I needed stronger glasses....perhaps it was a graven image of some other person.
:)
Very interesting, indeed!
I don't know what version of the Bible you're using, but you need to toss it and find a better translation.
Luke 11:27-28 As he said these things, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, “Blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts at which you nursed!” But he said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”
Jesus did not say *Blessed is Mary.* That is a total corruption of the account and you need to ditch it as such so you don't fall into greater deception.
And the same people will make the same claim a few posts down, or in another thread even after seeing the pictures...Maybe it's an exorcism issue...
let's see now, we have a 2,014 year old body of Christ and we have wikipedia....wonder which I'll choose as my source of information...
on the other hand, there is really no difference...
LOL!!
But which does not teach purgatory, and contradicts Rome by teaching offerings for those who died due to moral sin have hope. In addition, as this book, among others, was disputable for RCs, Rome went about to make it indisputable by issuing the first infallible definition of the canon.
If I could again impose on you, why did the Reformers choose to remove the Apocrypha from their Canon upon breaking with the Catholic Church? Again, not a rhetorical, but genuine question!
See here if you will.
While our sins are forgiven, the effects of our sins remain. Gossip, for instance, can be forgiven, but its effects can cause lasting pain and disgrace for its subject, even for their family. To a Catholic, facing the perfection of God, without these consequences being remitted, would be more than we could bear; thus the soul accepts the purgation of the consequences wrought by their sins, in Purgatory.
This proceeds from the false premise that one is justified on the basis of his interior holiness, and thus at at baptism one is made good enough to enter Heaven due to "infused charity," versus God justifying the UnGodly by faith being counted as righteousness, as Scripture teaches.
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. (Romans 4:5)
, And since the RC (EOs reject Rome's purgatory) does not maintain or usually attain again to that perfection in this life, then under this salvation system then he must spend an indeterminate time suffering "purifying torments" in "purgatory."
However, while true justifying faith must be the kind that effects practical holiness, "things that accompany salvation," (Heb. 6:9), and thus God chastens believers unto repentance lest they be condemned with the rest of the world," (1Cor. 11:32) - yet this is not to enable them to merit Heaven because they attained perfection holiness to enter it, but to bring them to walk in true faith, by which their hearts were purified, even before baptism. (Acts 11:7-9)
God also chastens penitent holy souls to make them more holy - and which can include suffering the effects of our past sins - yet all believers are already accepted in the Beloved and seated with Christ, (Eph. 1:6; 2:6) and in Scripture all sanctifying work is done in this world with its trials and temptations, in which there is an sinful alternative to suffering.
Moreover, all the verses which clearly speak of a N.T. believer's postmortem condition (Luke 23:43; Acts 7:59; 1Cor. 15:52; 2 Cor 5:8; Phil. 1:23; 1 Th 4:17; 1Jn. 3:2) show it is with the Lord, in whose presence there is fulness of joy (Ps. 16:11).
Furthermore, the only manifest postmortem suffering for believers is that of suffering the loss of rewards at the judgment seat of Christ, and the grievous shame of the Lord's disapproval, all due to the quality of the material he built the church with. But which does not occur until the Lord's return, and the elect are saved despite the loss of rewards, not because of them.
See here on 1Cor. 3
And i have debated the texts used in attempting to extrapolate support for purgatory, and they are either referring to the lost, or believers in this life, or 1cor. 3:8ff
“the book of life, as you describe it has certain requirements in order to remain in it.”
“Sealed.” The Spirit did it. I believe it.
“I will lose none.” Christ said it. I believe it.
“That you may KNOW you have eternal life.” God said it. I believe it.
“Yes, Jesus died to atone for our sins, but He certainly expects us to clean up our acts.”
The life of Christ is evident in those who have believing faith.
Maybe YOU do but certainly not all Catholics do, including some of your popes.
http://www.marypages.com/PrayerstoMary.htm
Mary, Help of Those in Need
Holy Mary, help those in need, give strength to the weak, comfort the sorrowful, pray for God's people, assist the clergy, intercede for religious. Mary all who seek your help experience your unfailing protection. Amen.
Morning Consecration to Mary
My Queen, My Mother, I offer myself entirely to thee. And to show my devotion to thee, I offer thee this day, my eyes, my ears, my mouth, my heart, my whole being without reserve.
Wherefore, good Mother, as I am thine own, keep me, guard me as thy property and possession. Amen.
Prayer to Our Lady of Guadalupe
Dear Mother, we love you. We thank you for your promise to help us in our need. We trust in your love that dries our tears and comforts us. Teach us to find our peace in your Son, Jesus, and bless us every day of our lives.
Prayer of Pope Pius XII
In Honor of the Immaculate Conception
http://catholicism.about.com/od/tothevirginmary/qt/Honor_Immacula.htm
Prayer of Pope Pius XII
Enraptured by the splendor of your heavenly beauty, and impelled by the anxieties of the world, we cast ourselves into your arms, O Immaculate Mother of Jesus and our Mother, Mary, confident of finding in your most loving heart appeasement of our ardent desires, and a safe harbor from the tempests which beset us on every side.
Though degraded by our faults and overwhelmed by infinite misery, we admire and praise the peerless richness of sublime gifts with which God has filled you, above every other mere creature, from the first moment of your conception until the day on which, after your assumption into heaven, He crowned you Queen of the Universe.
O crystal fountain of faith, bathe our minds with the eternal truths! O fragrant Lily of all holiness, captivate our hearts with your heavenly perfume! O Conqueress of evil and death, inspire in us a deep horror of sin, which makes the soul detestable to God and a slave of hell!
O well-beloved of God, hear the ardent cry which rises up from every heart. Bend tenderly over our aching wounds. Convert the wicked, dry the tears of the afflicted and oppressed, comfort the poor and humble, quench hatreds, sweeten harshness, safeguard the flower of purity in youth, protect the holy Church, make all men feel the attraction of Christian goodness. In your name, resounding harmoniously in heaven, may they recognize that they are brothers, and that the nations are members of one family, upon which may there shine forth the sun of a universal and sincere peace.Prayer of Pope Pius XII
In Honor of the Immaculate Conception
http://catholicism.about.com/od/tothevirginmary/qt/Honor_Immacula.htm
Prayer of Pope Pius XII
Enraptured by the splendor of your heavenly beauty, and impelled by the anxieties of the world, we cast ourselves into your arms, O Immaculate Mother of Jesus and our Mother, Mary, confident of finding in your most loving heart appeasement of our ardent desires, and a safe harbor from the tempests which beset us on every side.
Though degraded by our faults and overwhelmed by infinite misery, we admire and praise the peerless richness of sublime gifts with which God has filled you, above every other mere creature, from the first moment of your conception until the day on which, after your assumption into heaven, He crowned you Queen of the Universe.
O crystal fountain of faith, bathe our minds with the eternal truths! O fragrant Lily of all holiness, captivate our hearts with your heavenly perfume! O Conqueress of evil and death, inspire in us a deep horror of sin, which makes the soul detestable to God and a slave of hell!
O well-beloved of God, hear the ardent cry which rises up from every heart. Bend tenderly over our aching wounds. Convert the wicked, dry the tears of the afflicted and oppressed, comfort the poor and humble, quench hatreds, sweeten harshness, safeguard the flower of purity in youth, protect the holy Church, make all men feel the attraction of Christian goodness. In your name, resounding harmoniously in heaven, may they recognize that they are brothers, and that the nations are members of one family, upon which may there shine forth the sun of a universal and sincere peace.
Receive, O most sweet Mother, our humble supplications, and above all obtain for us that, one day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne that hymn which today is sung on earth around your altars: You are all-beautiful, O Mary! You are the glory, you are the joy, you are the honor of our people! Amen.
Um, because JR believes in free speech?
Because this is JR's forum, not Catholics Answers?
Because you're not in charge?
You have lots of options to choose from.
and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished,which one could (should?) note appears to suggest the transmutation is in finalization of the process, associated with being nourished, even internally so, with J.M. there speaking of the flesh and blood of those whom partake of this bread "by transmutation" being "nourished" while not there saying it be by power and authority of a set-apart priest whom by powers of invocation himself perform that function of "transmuting", with J.M. interestingly enough there also, following his own mention of communion as celebrated among Christians, making negative mention towards Mithra cultists who's worship included symbolic re-enactment of Mithra slaying the bull, meeting with Sol (the Sun) and sharing meal of the bull's flesh with Sol. To me, that aspect of Mithra-ism hearkens back to ancient Mesopotamia and Gilgamesh slaying of the bull of Heaven...
Yet there, even as Justin Martyr speaks of the flesh (of Christ) I would consider that he being speaking of Spirit even as also speaking directly towards the real world, sacramental reality of that portion of Christian communion and fellowship with one another and Christ all together...with this also of course having come about by Christ's own real and actual flesh and blood sacrifice which is being among Christians, sacramentally memorialized.
I notice too, that in your own citing from John 6, there is much missing from that chapter (and elsewhere too perhaps) which can reveal what this "flesh and blood" which Christ was speaking of being His own consisted of then, and how that returns again to us in Eucharist, Holy Communion, the Lord's Supper or more simply and in leaner manner of wording said to be 'communion' referring to church service, consecration of the bread & wine, and the partaking of that.
Notice that in John 6, in his own ending notes of explanatory discussion, includes Jesus having said there, in that exact context (of what would come to be termed Eucharist);
Who should we believe more? Who should lead our thoughts and opinions more when we turn toward consideration for just what the Messiah of Israel was talking about, either Jesus [the] Christ Himself, or those whom came along later?
Let us also not put aside that Jesus was presenting this revelatory teaching to those gathered and hand-chosen deliberately by none other than Himself, individuals from among Jewish men of that era, in fullest context of what those men all their lives previous had observed/acted out in memorial -- the Passover, even the fist Passover in Egypt.
That Passover was itself also foreshadowed in Abraham's own obedience to sacrifice upon an altar of stones, his own son Isaac, who was first-born son of God's own promise which had been made unto Abraham, Ishmael not himself being born fully of the promise, but more after the flesh alone, Abram's wife Sarai having suggested the very idea to Abram to go unto/into her serving maid Hagar in effort to try and help fulfill the promises which God had made to Abram in his much younger years, and had confirmed to him at least once after the initial promise, and yet also repeatedly upon numerous occasion, in the end sending even angelic visitors to announce that Sarah would conceive child by Abraham (the name changes Abram/Abraham Sarai/Sarah seen in Gen.17) -- but I digress.
Returning to John 6;
Leading up to the place where He took the bread (even the bread of the Passover, itself) Himself there breaking the bread, handing it to them saying...take, eat, this is My body broken for you...there are yet two more key passages which many (it seems to me) much overlook or even entirely set aside, similar to verse 63 being all-but never included in citation among those who's emphasis is placed upon the words "flesh" and "blood" while also asserting the rightfulness of Roman Catholic Mass (even to exclusion of all other ecclesiastical community, at times).
In verses 32 & 33, in response to one whom had challenged Him "Therefore they said to Him, “What sign will You perform then, that we may see it and believe You? What work will You do? Our fathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’”
took the opportunity there to underline how it was not Moses himself whom had performed/brought about such a "sign", even as He also from there on out compared Himself to manna which had come from Heaven;
32 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”
Let us pause for moment, and consider:
There is yet another key passage which appears to me to be frequently passed over -- on the way towards the seeming argument of *some* for this "flesh & blood" Christ speaks of as His own (which all must eat thereof or have no part of Him) to in end result, as for our own purposes of understanding --- equate with being something of fleshly, human (for Christ WAS fully human just as much as He was and fully God -- wasn't He?) steak tartare, flesh and blood in the raw as it were...
Yet I myself do not for one moment believe that that sort of concept is the precise conceptual understanding which He was intending to convey...even as at the very same time, He very much WAS indeed asserting that this bread of the Passover was His own flesh and blood -- His own body, broken for us.
For what was that body broken for but for payment for our very own sins?
As Paul wrote (2 Corinthians 5:21)
For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
In that way He comes from Heaven to us, having had come to this earth, in the flesh, to be slain for the sins of man, even for the sins of those whom the Father would call unto Himself, as He appeared to the world in the form of the Son, His own Only begotten.
Without that sacrifice of the Son, himself doing so willingly in obedience to the Father --- none can approach the Father, for if not for the Lamb (who Christ is) slain from the foundations of the world, there would not have been, could not have been that time when by the blood sacrifice of animals payment for sin and transgression be made, for as from the foundations --- without shedding of blood -- there can be no remission of sin. Is this not the Christ which many dine upon in form of visible sacrament?
What then truly is this flesh and blood He spoke as being His own?
This question inevitably leads back again to yet another brief passage in John 6 --- which you yourself did not include in your own citation from that chapter --- that passage immediately preceding verse 63 which I have here in this note, in hopes that what was said there be with all due care, considered; that verse coming down to us in conjunction with those both immediately preceding & following;
61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?
Yes indeed. What then? How can anyone literally eat His flesh and drink His blood --- that same flesh & blood was made to first --- suffer death itself, in our stead --- to then 3 days later (Justin Martyr speaking of this, as you quoted from translation for that, but obviously must not have counted the days well enough -- Friday eve to Saturday, then to "Sunday" morning not equaling "3" days, as days were accounted for among the Hebrews) rise from the grave, to then be witnessed by 500 persons in varied settings before eventually returning to where He was before?
Now there -- right there, this place "where He was before", does He there (now seated at the right hand of the Father) does this person whom we know of as Jesus have flesh & blood the same as that withing which He dwelled while He lived and breathed (much as we do) walking upon the earth as that saying goes, or is that same flesh now instead an incorruptible "flesh" as it were, something of which the makings of human steak tartare (actual endocannibalism) be impossible for?
The answer to that I do suggest can be found within the next verses;
63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” "
Once more, the same question as above, restated, something for us all to consider;
23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” (John 4:23-24)
I say all of the above to you, for reason that I myself have been given the Grace to both dine upon His holy "flesh" and also to have been given the powers of discernment that He truly is and was there --- Real Presence, which presence within one's own soul communes with & ministers to us in ways & manner which is difficult to describe to those whom have no direct & personal experience of their own with Him. (John 14:20; At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.)
I do believe also that having the Holy Spirit within oneself is necessary for this to be discerned, though I will venture a guess here that in the personal experience of some, including those whom could be identified as Roman Catholic -- their own initial and first time which they were themselves cognizant (discerning) of the presence of Him, by way of the Holy Spirit working within themselves, even towards the slaying of sin nature within themselves, was in context of themselves partaking of the Lord's Supper (also called Eucharist).
It may be -- when some people anyway...first "received the Holy Spirit" and were in that manner then and there, "born of the spirit" (John 3:5) entering then into His kingdom or realm while also yet living in this which we commonly regard as earthly realm.
John 3:8
Can you see here brother, that I speak not on my own authority, but here bear witness to the truth of the Holy Writ?
God is not a man, that he should lie...Numbers 23:19
they'd better not be black....the dead black thug in Missouri only laid in the street for a few hours and all hell broke loose...
where on Earth did you come up with that three day in the streets nonsense???
It's not Protestantism.
It's JESUS' own words out of the Bible that the Catholics here keep telling us the Catholic church wrote. You know. The words that Catholics keep telling us they hold in such high esteem, higher than Prots do?
The words they then go on to choose to blatantly ignore.
Matthew 23:1-12
Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat, so do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do. For they preach, but do not practice. They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on people's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger. They do all their deeds to be seen by others. For they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long, and they love the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues and greetings in the marketplaces and being called rabbi by others.
But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers. And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ. The greatest among you shall be your servant. Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9ineff.htm
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