Posted on 12/14/2014 11:57:21 AM PST by ealgeone
The reason for this article is to determine if the worship/veneration given to Mary by the catholic church is justified from a Biblical perspective. This will be evaluated using the Biblical standard and not man’s standard.
I smell a strange mixture of ozone, stale beer, bar urinals, and chicken soup.
And you also!
I don't think so. They think the "Lord's day" is Saturday don't they?
snicker
So in other words, some other mainstream denominations do not believe in redemptive suffering, except for that of Jesus. Thank you for clearing that up! I didn't know.
Ok, yet another genuine inquiry: how do you feel when St. Paul said he was making up in his body what is lacking in the Suffering of Christ?
Thank you!
Actually, He has already forgiven me...you have not.
It is a blight on your Spirit...not mine.
Your comments are seething with anger and hatred. You say you are filled with the Holy Spirit...but you don't speak in the Spirit.
You speak with the voice of demons.
DON'T DO THAT... Elsie is more than a little entertaining...he posts great pictures, Cheerios boxes and stuff and he has a great list of naughty Popes and time lines for Mary to answer prayers. His christian education is a little in doubt...for example, he doesn't think that anyone is in Heaven (other than God)..but oh well, EVERYONE is entitled to their own opinion....
That hits it exactly.
What a delightful play on words that title is.
The Assumption is the Dogma that the Blessed Virgin Mary was assumed BODY and SOUL into heaven at the end of her life. The archaeological record is one of the most compelling confirmations of this truth. The veneration of burial places, tombs and relics of dead saints is universal and consistent in the early Church and has carried right through to this day.
Everyone knows where St. Peter is buried, and the relics of St. Paul and the other apostles and saints, even recent saints like St. Bernadette are venerated and in some cases spread all over the earth. Almost every Catholic Church contains the relics of multiple saints.
But one saint has NEVER had any location venerated as her burial place, nor have there ever been any relics purported to be part of her body. Never. Who is this person whom everyone has always agreed has no earthly tomb and for whom there are no earthly relics?
Only the second-most-important person to ever walk the earth, and THE most important person who was NOT God Incarnate: The Blessed Virgin Mary.
The reason why she has no tomb and no relics is because at the end of her life (the Church is not sure whether or not she actually died, and so that question is intentionally left open)
Our Lord immediately granted to her the promise made to all Christians of the resurrection and heaven, BODY AND SOUL. So, there are two physical human bodies in heaven right now: Our Lord and His Mother.
We don’t know exactly how to explain this, but I suspect that it has something to do with temporal or dimensional phase shifting, as Our Lord walked through walls, doors and other solid objects after the Resurrection (John 20:19).
As Einstein discovered, mass and energy are equivalent, and thus can phase back and forth. We also know from the Mass itself that while we experience time in a linear continuum, God is in no way constrained by linear time, and can manipulate, bend and intersect points in time. How? Oh, no clue. There is so much about physics that we don’t understand. But hey, that’s all part of the fun of the mystery, right?
Only after the Second Coming and the Judgment will the rest of the Church be reunited to their resurrected (for those who have died) or glorified (for those who are alive at the Second Coming and Judgment) bodies, to be united to the Trinity, dwelling inside the Beatific Vision forever. But Mary is already there. She has already been ASSUMED into heaven, and is the proof of God’s promise of what lies in store for those who die in the Church, in friendship with Christ. And today, August 15th, is the Feast of the Assumption.
This is a Holy Day of Obligation, which means that all Christians are required to attend Mass just as if it was a Sunday. So, what better time to talk about and explain the doctrines of the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption, and the science that underpins both dogmas.
First, the Immaculate Conception. This doctrine and non-negotiable tenet of Christianity teaches that Mary was, by the grace of God, prevented from carrying the stain of Original Sin from the moment of her conception. This is a deal-breaker.
If you do not believe this, then you are not a Christian, because the logical consequences of denying the Immaculate Conception inevitably leads to denying the Incarnation and Divinity of Jesus Christ Himself.
If you deny the Incarnation and the Divinity of Christ by denying the logical antecedent of the Immaculate Conception, you are NOT Christian. You are a quasi-Christian neo-pagan. Welcome to the New Evangelization. No more boot-licking of Protestant-pagan heresies and calling it “ecumenism”.
Mary was saved from sin by her Son, like all of the other faithful, it is just that the timing of her salvation was different from everyone else. This is why Mary, sinless though she is, still calls God “my Savior” in her Magnificat in Luke 1:46-55.
Instead of letting Mary fall in the mud puddle of sin like the rest of us, God stuck out His Arm back through time from the Cross and kept her from falling in the mud puddle – but if it wasn’t for God’s positive action of reaching out across time from the Cross and holding her from falling, she would have fallen.
This is called “grace”, and is what the Angel Gabriel was referring to when he greeted Mary at the Annunciation with the words, “Hail! Full of grace! The LORD is with thee. Blessed art thou among women.” Luke 1:28 Full of grace means FULL. OF. GRACE.
How full is full? Full is totally full. To the brim. Full does not mean half-full or mostly-full. Full means full. Mary was FULL OF GRACE.
And because Mary was FULL of grace, there was absolutely no room for sin. Mary didn’t sin because God her Savior had filled her with grace and therefore she just COULDN’T sin. Most of us reading this have a tiny taste of what this is like.
For example, I’m guessing that everyone reading this would be incapable of killing a baby. We just COULDN’T do it. No matter what threat was made against us, no matter what the adverse consequences to our own lives might be, we would take any adverse consequence before killing a baby. We are simply incapable of performing that act. Why? What is that internal force of energy that prevents us from committing acts of evil even when under intense duress and threat? It is grace. Pure and simple.
Sadly, most of us have a little grace, but are not in any way FULL of grace. I am personally much closer to being full of crap than of grace (which many of you have already pointed out to me – thank you very much), hence the daily, persistent, repeated sinning on my part.
And I suspect it is a similar situation with you, dear reader, with the grace-to-crap ratio being much higher for you than for me. I really am quite full of crap. With Mary there was no crap because God her Savior had FILLED her with grace, and thus there was no room for crap, and thus there was no sin.
It’s really just 2nd grade math if you think about it. But WHY? Why was it essential for Mary to be sinless and sinless from the moment of her conception? That’s where the science comes in.
Actually, I have the right guy.
You entered this thread angry and accusatory. Full of hate toward "prots".
God does not hate.
You are the burning ember of evil on this thread.
Full of hate...
If you are honest you will go back over your posts and reconsider them (why do I doubt you will even consider such).
I have lost faith in you.
You are filled with a spirit...but it is not the Holy Spirit.
You are born again alright...
But of what are you born? It is far from Holy!
“but what about Christ saying that I am with you from NOW UNTIL THE END OF TIME..I hate broken promises, don’t you??”
Christ is still here with every true believer. No broken promises.
“all people would have access to the Bible.”
Not only that, but they read it.
“The FACT that the Catholic church had saved the bible from oblivion doesn’t even occur to you. “
Now how can you mind read like that?
“Catholics wrote, compiled, edited, copied (by hand) the Bible that you have today.”
God inspired 2/3 of His Word before a single Christian was on earth. Your boast is empty.
“Without the Catholic Church, you’d have to run down to your local Synagogue to read a copy of the Old Testament and that’s all that would be available.”
I have a stronger view of God’s sovereignty than you, apparently.
“about 11,600 years after the founding and preservation of Christianity by the Catholics,”
I don’t know what calendar you are using terycarl, but it must be metric.
“along came the revolutionaries ....They said, we decided that this particular thing doesn’t appeal to us so we’d better get rid of it, we don’t like that book in the bible so let’s eliminate it...Jesus didn’t really mean it when He Said “THIS IS MY BODY”...so lets just assume He was kidding.”
Thankfully.
“you are part of 30,000 or so “denominations” all of which think that they are right....They aren’t, The Catholic Church is correct, always has been, and always will be. Christ said so...believe Him!”
Of course you believe this. You are catholic. What choice do you have? Hundreds of millions of us just smile when you say stuff like this. We think your claims are full of horse manure. :-)
You have to be kidding! I’d wager that one is a snake handler as well. Totally vile and hateful.
goodwithagun, please take my advice, ignore that one.
“The reformers hardly had the power to set straight more than a thousand years of error generated by Constantine’s cult, but Yeshua will do it “in the twinkling of an eye” at the last trump!”
Let’s bow our heads and enjoy this moment of agreement :-)
Check out #751 below.
Your claim is found in Catholic tradition, not Scripture! They are all dead. Mary is dead. I am a saint, but I am not dead YET!
I will answer your question with a quoted post from another site:
"If you are already in heaven in spirit, why then do u need your physical body in heaven?
comparing the ressurection of Jesus to ours is ok. but note that Jesus was in spirit form from the beginning.(this is confirmed in the hebrew bible, where the creation was done by Elohim the plural name for God in genesis 1) it was His decision to die for mankind that made him come in flesh. this implies that dominion in heaven has always been in spirit. tha father, the son and the spirit plus the hosts of heaven have always been in spirit.
John 3vs13 Jesus said"no one has gone into heaven, except the Son of man that came down from it"
when apostle peter was explaining the concept and intrigues of Christs ressurection, to convince the isrealites about the realities of Jesus ressurection, he made startling revealations. lets examine them.
Acts2vs29-34
29"Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31Seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the resurrection of the Christ,[a] that he was not abandoned to the grave, nor did his body see decay. 32God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact. 33Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. , 34For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said
" 'The Lord said to my Lord:
"Sit at my right hand
notice the last verse david did not ascend into heaven. tayo-d where is david?
again to butress what I said earlier on, that the state of everyone before judgement is death. In john5:28, Jesus said "Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice". This readily implies that on the day of judgement the state of all is dead.
you made refrence to apostle paul. true he said in phillipians1:23-24 that "I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body."
he said this because as David also confirmed, once u re dead, u loose all sense of time, the next phase you know is judgement. also check ecclesiatess9:5 "For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even the memory of them is forgotten.
Paul re-affirmed this in 1thessalonians4:16 that "16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first."
and when he finished his good work i.e when he knew his time was up he said in 2timothy4:6-7 "6For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time has come for my departure. 7I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—[/b]and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing"
notice that he said on that day, and not immediately I die."
THAT IS ABSOLUTELY CORRECT.......The apostles could only declare what was ALREADY THE TRUTH....Now, the apostles, of course did not know every truth that God did....but He promised that what they declared to be the truth, would be OR HE WOULD NOT INSPIRE THEM to declare it.
In short, He declared that the Catholic church would be infallible in matters of faith and morals because He would not allow her to err.....
Thanks,CB you expressed that very well!!!
I gave you the very short form just say the word and I will give you every word of the entire Mass with the Scriptural reference for each sentence.
You missed several salient parts.
1) Catholic Mass is offered EVERY DAY OF THE WEEK.
2) Every day of the week there are a minimum of three Scriptural readings typically one OLD testament, One Psalms and One New Testament.
3) There is the Liturgy of the Hours where prayers an Scripture are said roughly every four - six hours. Different scriptural passages are said SIX times a say.
Here is an Example of the Liturgy of the Hours for Vespers normally said in the Evening
PS Before the fourth century allusions to the evening prayer are found in the earlier Fathers, Clement I of Rome (Clemens Romanus), St. Ignatius, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Origen, the Canons of St. Hippolytus, St. Cyprian. Pliny the Younger, in his famous letter at the beginning of the 2nd century, speaks of liturgical reunions of the Christians in the morning and in the evening: “coetus antelucani et vespertini”. Vespers is, therefore, together with Vigils, the most ancient Office known in the Church.[4]
Vespers (Evening Prayer)
INTRODUCTION
O God, come to our aid.
O Lord, make haste to help us.
Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit,
as it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be,
world without end.
Amen. Alleluia.
Hymn
On Jordan’s bank the Baptist’s cry
Announces that the Lord is nigh;
Come then and hearken, for he brings
Glad tidings from the King of kings.
Then cleansed be every Christian breast,
And furnished for so great a guest!
Yea, let us each his heart prepare
For Christ to come and enter there.
For thou art our salvation, Lord,
Our refuge and our great reward;
Without thy grace our souls must fade,
And wither like a flower decayed.
Stretch forth thine hand, to heal our sore,
And make us rise to fall no more;
Once more upon thy people shine,
And fill the world with love divine.
All praise, eternal Son, to thee,
Whose Advent sets thy people free,
Whom, with the Father, we adore,
And Holy Ghost, for evermore.
Psalm 124 (125)
The Lord guards his people
The Lord surrounds his people.
Those who trust in the Lord are like the mountain of Zion:
it cannot be shaken, it will stand firm for ever.
Jerusalem – the mountains stand guard over it,
and the Lord stands guard over his people,
both now and for ever.
The sceptre of the wicked shall not rest
upon the inheritance of the just;
lest the just themselves stretch out their hands
and turn to wickedness.
Be good, O Lord, to the good
and the upright of heart.
As for those who turn away to crooked paths,
the Lord shall treat them like the doers of evil.
Peace be on Israel!
Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit,
as it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be,
world without end.
Amen.
The Lord surrounds his people.
Psalm 130 (131)
Childlike trust in God
Unless you become like little children you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Lord, I do not puff myself up or stare about,
or walk among the great or seek wonders beyond me.
Truly calm and quiet I have made my spirit:
quiet as a weaned child in its mother’s arms –
like an infant is my soul.
Let Israel hope in the Lord, now and for all time.
Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit,
as it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be,
world without end.
Amen.
Unless you become like little children you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Canticle Apocalypse 4,5
The song of the redeemed
Lord, you made us a kingdom and priests to serve our God.
You are worthy, our Lord and our God,
to receive glory and honour and power;
for you made all things,
and it is by your will that they exist and were created.
You are worthy, Lord,
to receive the book and open its seals,
for you were killed,
and with your blood you have ransomed people
from every tribe and language and people and nation,
and made them rulers and priests for God;
and they will rule over the earth.
The Lamb is worthy, who was killed,
to receive power and riches and wisdom,
strength and honour, glory and blessing.
Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit,
as it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be,
world without end.
Amen.
Lord, you made us a kingdom and priests to serve our God.
Short Reading
(1 Corinthians 1:7-9) ©
We are waiting for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed; and he will keep you steady and without blame until the last day, the day of our Lord Jesus Christ, because God by calling you has joined you to his Son, Jesus Christ; and God is faithful.
Short Responsory
Come to us and save us, Lord God almighty.
– Come to us and save us, Lord God almighty.
Let your face smile on us and we shall be safe.
– Come to us and save us, Lord God almighty.
Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit.
– Come to us and save us, Lord God almighty.
Canticle Magnificat
My soul rejoices in the Lord
Before they came together, Mary was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit.
My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord,
and my spirit rejoices in God, my salvation.
For he has shown me such favour –
me, his lowly handmaiden.
Now all generations will call me blessed,
because the mighty one has done great things for me.
His name is holy,
his mercy lasts for generation after generation
for those who revere him.
He has put forth his strength:
he has scattered the proud and conceited,
torn princes from their thrones;
but lifted up the lowly.
He has filled the hungry with good things;
the rich he has sent away empty.
He has come to the help of his servant Israel,
he has remembered his mercy as he promised to our fathers,
to Abraham and his children for ever.
Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit,
as it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be,
world without end.
Amen.
Before they came together, Mary was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit.
Prayers and intercessions
The Lord God said: ‘I shall look for the lost one, bring back the stray, bandage the wounded and make the weak strong.’
– Lord our God, come to save us.
Lord God, you made us and sustain us with your love:
help us to recognize that you are in our midst.
– Lord our God, come to save us.
You are close to each one of us:
open our hearts to love you.
– Lord our God, come to save us.
We pray for those who find their lives a burden too heavy to bear:
Lord, be their strength and their hope.
– Lord our God, come to save us.
You are Life, and the enemy of death:
rescue us and all the faithful departed from eternal darkness.
– Lord our God, come to save us.
Our Father, who art in heaven,
hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come.
Thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread,
and forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those who trespass against us,
and lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.
Father,
through your Son you have made us a new people.
Look on us now as the new creation of your love,
and by the coming of your Son, cleanse us from every stain of sin.
Through our Lord Jesus Christ, your Son,
who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit,
one God, for ever and ever.
Amen.
The Lord bless us, and keep us from all evil, and bring us to everlasting life.
AMEN
Here are today’s Daily Mass’s Scriptural Readings:
http://www.universalis.com/20141216/today.htm
First reading
Numbers 24:2-7,15-17 ©
Raising his eyes Balaam saw Israel, encamped by tribes; the spirit of God came on him and he declaimed his poem. He said:
‘The oracle of Balaam son of Beor,
the oracle of the man with far-seeing eyes,
the oracle of one who hears the word of God.
He sees what Shaddai makes him see,
receives the divine answer, and his eyes are opened.
How fair are your tents, O Jacob!
How fair your dwellings, Israel!
Like valleys that stretch afar,
like gardens by the banks of a river,
like aloes planted by the Lord,
like cedars beside the waters!
A hero arises from their stock,
he reigns over countless peoples.
His king is greater than Agag,
his majesty is exalted.’
Then Balaam declaimed his poem again. He said:
‘The oracle of Balaam son of Beor,
the oracle of the man with far-seeing eyes,
the oracle of one who hears the word of God,
of one who knows the knowledge of the Most High.
He sees what Shaddai makes him see,
receives the divine answer, and his eyes are opened.
I see him – but not in the present,
I behold him – but not close at hand:
a star from Jacob takes the leadership,
a sceptre arises from Israel.’
Psalm
Psalm 24:4-6,7-9 ©
Lord, make me know your ways.
Lord, make me know your ways.
Lord, teach me your paths.
Make me walk in your truth, and teach me:
for you are God my saviour.
Lord, make me know your ways.
In you I hope all day long
because of your goodness, O Lord.
Remember your mercy, Lord,
and the love you have shown from of old.
Do not remember the sins of my youth.
In your love remember me.
Lord, make me know your ways.
The Lord is good and upright.
He shows the path to those who stray,
He guides the humble in the right path,
He teaches his way to the poor.
Lord, make me know your ways.
Gospel Acclamation
Alleluia, alleluia!
The Lord will come, go out to meet him.
Great is his beginning and his reign will have no end.
Alleluia!
Or Ps84:8
Alleluia, alleluia!
Let us see, O Lord, your mercy
and give us your saving help.
Alleluia!
Gospel
Matthew 21:23-27 ©
Jesus had gone into the Temple and was teaching, when the chief priests and the elders of the people came to him and said, ‘What authority have you for acting like this? And who gave you this authority?’ ‘And I’ replied Jesus ‘will ask you a question, only one; if you tell me the answer to it, I will then tell you my authority for acting like this. John’s baptism: where did it come from: heaven or man?’ And they argued it out this way among themselves, ‘If we say from heaven, he will retort, “Then why did you refuse to believe him?”; but if we say from man, we have the people to fear, for they all hold that John was a prophet.’ So their reply to Jesus was, ‘We do not know.’ And he retorted, ‘Nor will I tell you my authority for acting like this.’
Catholics are steeped in Scripture
For the Greater Glory of God
I rarely post on these threads because I find them hateful, and very sad, actually. I regret reading the vile posts whenever I come across them on the “latest comments page.”
I have no problems or any beefs with non-Catholic Christians, so I find these threads both regrettable, hateful and such a waste of time. NO GOOD WILL is achieved, or if it is, it’s lost on me.
Be well and may God bless and keep you and everyone you love.
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