Posted on 12/07/2014 10:40:37 AM PST by wmfights
If the translation takes place after the tribulation, the question facing the posttribulationists is a very obvious one: Who is going to populate the earth during the millennium? The Scriptures are specific that, during the millennium, saints will build houses and bear children and have normal, mortal lives on earth. If all believers are translated and all unbelievers are put to death, there will be no one left to populate the earth and fulfill these Scriptures.
The separation of Matthew 25 is similar to that of Ezekiel 20. The unbelievers, described as the “goats,” are cast into everlasting fire by means of physical death, whereas the “sheep” enter the kingdom prepared for them—the millennial kingdom. While the judgment in Matthew 25, as in Ezekiel 20, is based on outward works, it is true here as elsewhere in Scripture that works are taken as evidence of salvation. The good works of the “sheep” in befriending the “brethren” (the Jewish people) is an act of kindness which no one but a believer in Christ would perform during the tribulation when Christian as well as Jew is hated by all the world.
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I am definitely going have to get his books.
Wm,
I suggest that with each article you post, you also include a running list of previous article links. It would be a great resource...
Thanks for posting,
AMPU
Right On!
These are strong arguments against a traditional post-tribulation rapture, but they do not successfully support a pre-tribulation rapture.
“A careful study of related Scripture will demonstrate that an interval of time between the translation of the church and the coming of Christ to establish the millennial kingdom is absolutely necessary.”
Correct. But when is this interval? It is certainly the Day of the Lord which comes AFTER the Great Tribulation.
The article shows evidence for two distinct events regarding the return of the Lord. And it does show that a period of time is required between them. But it does not support that the period of time is the Great Tribulation.
Rather, the rapture of the church will take place after the Great Tribulation but not at the end of Daniel’s seventieth week because these are two DIFFERENT events at different times. The Great Tribulation will begin, not at the opening of the seals, but at the abomination of desolation in the middle of this “week.” And it will end with signs in the heavens, followed immediately by Christ’s return for His bride, the Church, made up of both Gentile AND Jewish believers. Then the Day of Wrath begins and includes the seven trumpets, seven thunders, and seven bowls of judgment in Revelation.
“The best answer to the problem of who will populate the millennial earth is an obvious one. If the church is translated before the tribulation period, there is ample time for a new generation of believers to come into being from Jew and Gentile background to qualify for entrance into the millennial kingdom at the second coming of Christ.”
Not the best, nor the correct answer. The author leaves no plausible explanation for what is clearly described in Matthew 24 regarding Christ’s return:
Matthew 24:29-31
Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
When does this “coming” of Christ occur? It is clearly AFTER the Great Tribulation. But how can the preceding events be reconciled with Revelation?
Christ said the Great Tribulation will be immediately followed by signs in the heavens, including the sun and moon being turned dark. But this does not happen in Revelation at the END of the trumpet and bowl judgments. It happens BEFORE them at the opening of the sixth seal.
Paul clearly ties the rapture of the church to the onset of the Day of the Lord (which is the Day of Wrath for unbelievers and Day of Christ for believers).
1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:10
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.
But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.
Notice that both the return of Christ and the Day of the Lord are said to happen “like a thief in the night.” Further, Christ describes His return AFTER the Great Tribulation with these same words:
Matthew 24:43-44
But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.
Please study the Day of the Lord. You will find that it clearly FOLLOWS the signs in the heavens. The Great Tribulation precedes those signs.
The Great Tribulation is a time of unprecedented trouble which affects ALL flesh. The Day of Wrath only affects unbelievers.
The Day of Wrath is a period of destruction. Daniel’s Seventieth Week includes much destruction but begins with peace.
1 Thessalonians 5:3
For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.
While the judgment in Matthew 25, as in Ezekiel 20, is based on outward works, it is true here as elsewhere in Scripture that works are taken as evidence of salvation. The good works of the “sheep” in befriending the “brethren” (the Jewish people) is an act of kindness which no one but a believer in Christ would perform during the tribulation when Christian as well as Jew is hated by all the world.
I do not believe the 'works' are evidence of salvation...I believe they are a requirement for salvation, along with faith...
No where do these people pass the muster by faith alone...The emphasis is on works...
As per the goats:
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
These guys recognize Jesus as the Lord...There is no mention of Eph. 2:8,9 but everything is 'works'...
The judgment of the Gentiles is an individual judgment, though some premillenarians have seen in it a description of national judgment. This misconception has arisen from the English translation where the Greek word ethne is rendered “nation.”
I am one of those...I do not believe it is a 'misconception'...And it does make for interesting discourse...
But overall, I'm right with ya....
Some of us believe there will be a very large war in Israel which marks the 7 year period of the Tribulation...
Notice that both the return of Christ and the Day of the Lord are said to happen “like a thief in the night.” Further, Christ describes His return AFTER the Great Tribulation with these same words:
Matthew 24:43-44 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.
Similar, but not at all the same...In the Rapture Jesus comes for his church...In the scripture described in Mat. 24, Jesus comes for the tares, not the wheat...
No one is ever saved by works or faith+works in the OT, NT or end times. I agree with Walvoord, the works mentioned are the fruits of salvation by God’s Grace effecting regeneration of the believer.
There is only one Gospel and it was preached by all the apostles (1 Corinthians 15). There are no other gospels out there.
Where we sometimes get wrapped around these passages of “the righteous” or “those doing good” entering the Kingdom is because we don’t read Paul’s epistles fully. He spends a good amount of time telling us that those saved by Grace are conformed to the Image of the Son. That is only possible by Christ abiding in us and we in Him. This means doing what Christ told us to do. We do so because He paid for us with such a price.
Our earthly fathers do not measure their love for us in the chores we do for them. They are, however, well pleased at our love back, our earnest work showing them we believe their example and strive to imitate it. That is faith in action not works.
For if at some point the Gospel changes then that means it is no longer Grace but works.
Sorry for the length but even gentlemen like Walvoord warned us of the hyper dispensationalism even in his time. The type which asserts Peter et al. preached a different Gospel than Paul. One Gospel, One Body of Christ.
“Some of us believe there will be a very large war in Israel which marks the 7 year period of the Tribulation”
Certainly war will happen during that time, but first is the false peace offered by a false messiah. Wars follow.
Matthew 24:4-6
And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Revelation 6:2-4
And I looked, and behold, a white horse. He who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.
When He opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature saying, “Come and see.” Another horse, fiery red, went out. And it was granted to the one who sat on it to take peace from the earth, and that people should kill one another; and there was given to him a great sword.
Note that the second horse rider takes peace away. This means there was a kind of peace before in order to be taken away.
“Similar, but not at all the same...In the Rapture Jesus comes for his church...In the scripture described in Mat. 24, Jesus comes for the tares, not the wheat”
The parable of wheat and tares was not discussed in the Olivet discourse (Matthew 24). That parable is in Matthew 13. It occurs at the end when Christ establishes His kingdom.
Matthew 13:41
The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness...
But in Matthew 24, the “elect” are gathered, not tares:
Matthew 24:30-31
Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
It is important to study these things carefully, without a preconceived bias. The pre-trib rapture sounds like everything fits together perfectly, until you actually read these passages carefully. It just does not fit. As much as I would like it to be true, I have to accept what the scriptures say and follow man made doctrines.
You and I obviously disagree...I can live with that...
The Apostle James writes that we are justified by works and faith together. The Apostle Paul writes we are saved by grace through faith. Since the scripture cannot be broken, both must be equally true. We are being saved by grace through faith in concert with works of faith that produce fruit of righteousness, and it is the gift of God. Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Matthew 24:30-31 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
You'll notice that the elect do not come from the earth...They come from heaven...That will be the Bride...
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Those who were taken away were those who were partying, the they in verse 38...They didn't know of the coming flood til it was upon them...
Noah knew the flood was coming so we know he is not the one who didn't know the flood was coming and taken away...
Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
Mat 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
Are you the goodman of the house??? Why are you worried about your house if you are going up in the Rapture??? This is not the (a) Raputure...If the goodman of the house knew in what watch the Lord was going to show up, he would have headed for the hills...For safety...
Revelation 6:2-4 And I looked, and behold, a white horse. He who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.
When He opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature saying, “Come and see.” Another horse, fiery red, went out. And it was granted to the one who sat on it to take peace from the earth, and that people should kill one another; and there was given to him a great sword.
Note that the second horse rider takes peace away. This means there was a kind of peace before in order to be taken away.
The first horse rider was creating a lot of havoc before the 2nd one heads out...
It is important to study these things carefully, without a preconceived bias.
So if someone doesn't agree with you, he/she hasn't studied carefully...I think I will disagree with that...
You'll never figure it out if you don't look at ALL the scripture...
I see this instead as a reference to the prophecy of Moses. The "out most parts of heaven" match "one end of heaven to another" and God is gathering the dispersed of Israel. And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the Lord thy God hath driven thee, 2 And shalt return unto the Lord thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul; 3 That then the Lord thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the Lord thy God hath scattered thee. 4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the Lord thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee: 5 And the Lord thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers. 6 And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. 7 And the Lord thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee. 8 And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the Lord, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day.
So when does this take place???
The Apostle James is talking about how OTHERS see our faith, how that a genuine faith WILL show by the fruit it bears. That is why James repeats phrases like "you see" and "seest thou". Man looks on the outward appearance, God looks at the heart. We are saved by grace through faith, alone, but it is a faith that is not alone. The fruit genuine faith bears does NOT contribute to our salvation, because our salvation is NOT by works - we don't earn, deserve or merit eternal life - it is ALL by grace.
So, even before the law, after the law, after Christ came the first time, before and after He returns again, it is ALWAYS by grace that God saves us. The sheep did the courageous and right things during the Tribulation because they WERE sheep already. The "goats" were always goats and their actions showed it. Someone helping the Jews during the Tribulation did not turn a goat into a sheep, it just demonstrated that he/she really was a sheep.
I appreciate your feedback, especially when you are making a case from scripture which is the final arbitrator of these matters until the Lord returns and we understand fully. I did not intend to insult you. What I said applies to myself as well. I do not have all the answers. Ideas that you or others share from scripture I will most definitely check out. And you have shared some though-provoking ideas which I will continue to study.
But I do not see your point about the Matthew 24 return of Christ referring to the Church returning with Him from Heaven. First, it would make no sense to say the elect needed to be gathered together. They would all be with Christ. Second, the Olivet discourse as Mark records it includes a detail that contradicts this notion as well:
Mark 13:27
And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.
The elect here are specifically gathered FROM EARTH. The four winds of heaven refers to the event being global. Much of the discourse revolves around events in Israel and particularly in Jerusalem. But this one is global.
“Those who were taken away were those who were partying”
True, but they were “taken away” by the flood. Noah was carried to safety away from the flood. The ark is a symbol of our blessed hope. The flood represents God’s wrath. He will not destroy the earth again by a flood but rather by fire. BUT, AND THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PART, the wrath is what FOLLOWS the Great Tribulation and return of Christ. Whatever persecution Noah endured was BEFORE the flood. He escaped the wrath of God which came by the flood on the wicked.
“The first horse rider was creating a lot of havoc before the 2nd one heads out”
The first rider appears to represent the rise of anti-Christ to power which we know from Daniel will be done through flattery rather than war. The symbol of a bow without arrows may represent disarmament. Around here we recognize this threat politically even if not based on prophecy. We all know the dangers of gun control and nuclear disarmament.
What’s more important though is recognizing the correlation between the Olivet passages and Revelation 6:
1) Deception, False Christs, False Peace - Matthew 24:5; Mark 13:5,6; Luke 21:8; Revelation 6:2 (1st Seal)
2) War and rumors of war - Matthew 24:6,7; Mark 13:7,8; Luke 21:9,10; Revelation 6:3,4 (2nd Seal)
3) Famine - Matthew 24:7; Mark 13:8; Luke 21:11; Revelation 6:5,6 (3rd Seal)
4) Disease, troubles and natural disasters - Matthew 24:7; Mark 13:8; Luke 21:11; Revelation 6:7,8 (4th Seal)
5) “Tribulation”, persecution and martyrdom of the saints - Matthew 24:9; Mark 13:9; Luke 21:12; Revelation 6:9-11 (5th Seal)
6) Signs in the heavens, specifically the darkening of the sun and moon (immediately AFTER the Great Tribulation) - Matthew 24:29; Mark 13:24,25; Luke 21:25,26; Revelation 6:12-14 (6th Seal)
7) Return of the Lord / Day of the Lord - Matthew 24:30,31; Mark 13:26,27; Luke 21:27,28; Revelation 6:17 (subsequent to the 6th seal, prior to 7th seal)
What happens when the world sees the Day of Wrath has arrived? They hide and flee in terror according to Revelation 6:15-18. They attribute their terror to Christ (the Lamb). What did Christ say people will do when He returns at the end of the Great Tribulation? Christ said “all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.” (Matthew 24:30)
How is it that Christ describes His return immediately AFTER the tribulation and signs in heaven, and yet Revelation includes a period of wrath on the earth in the form of seven trumpet and seven bowl judgments? How do you account for the correlation between the Olivet discourse and Revelation 6 if the return of Christ described in the Olivet Discourse is to occur at the end of Daniel’s seventieth week (assuming that week includes the trumpet and bowl judgments)?
If the return of Christ in Matthew 24:30 correlates to His return in Revelation 19:11-21, I would like to understand how Revelation 8-18 fits into the Olivet discourse. I believe His return as described in Matthew 24:30 represents His return for His bride which includes the translation of living saints who “come out of the Great Tribulation” in Revelation 7.
In the Revelation 19 account I do not read of all the tribes of the earth mourning. Rather I see the anti-Christ gathering his armies to fight.
Consider what happens when Christ returns for the church here:
2 Thessalonians 1:6-8
It is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
This refers to His return for the church because it is at that time they receive rest. But notice that it is also at that time that the fiery judgment of God’s wrath begins, culminating in eternal punishment of the wicked (when they die from the judgments of that Day). This does not correlate with the opening of the first seal. In fact, none of the seal judgments represent the judgment of fire from God. That begins in Revelation 8 and is carried out by angels:
Revelation 8:5-7
Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and threw it to the earth. And there were noises, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake. So the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound. The first angel sounded: And hail and fire followed, mingled with blood, and they were thrown to the earth. And a third of the trees were burned up, and all green grass was burned up.
This lines up with the judgment of God by fire which follows the return of Christ. He will come in days like those of Noah, but He will judge the inhabitants of the earth with fire and not water. At this point, the bride of Christ is safely in Heaven, the 144,000 elect Jews have been sealed and protected from divine wrath, and those on earth who have seen the glorious appearing of Christ will mourn and hide because they know that His fiery wrath is about to be poured out on the earth.
Yes brother we can disagree. We both live in the age of Grace. What will happen is future and I think you agree that future is going to be present very soon.
When taking in the complete counsel of God’s revealed word, the scriptures, we know saved by Grace effects a change in the repentant sinner thus the regenerated soul marching lovingly and obediently to the clarion call of Christ Jesus our Lord and Savior.
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