Posted on 12/01/2014 11:06:03 AM PST by BlatherNaut
Note: before some "apologists of the untenable" claim this must be a translation error, it is not, as you will see - we carefully checked it and retranslated it word by word from the Italian. What does it mean? We will not venture to say. We report it, for the record, you decide:
The Conciliar Constitution Gaudium et Spes, faced with these questions that forever resonate in the hearts of men and women, states: “We do not know the time for the consummation of the earth and of humanity, nor do we know how all things will be transformed. As deformed by sin, the shape of this world will pass away; but we are taught that God is preparing a new dwelling place and a new earth where justice will abide, and whose blessedness will answer and surpass all the longings for peace which spring up in the human heart” (n. 39). This is the Church’s destination: it is, as the Bible says, the “new Jerusalem”, “Paradise”. More than a place, it is a “state” of soul in which our deepest hopes are fulfilled in a superabundant way and our being, as creatures and as children of God, reach their full maturity. We will finally be clothed in the joy, peace and love of God, in a complete way, without any limit, and we will come face to face with Him! (cf. 1 Cor 13:12). It is beautiful to think of this, to think of Heaven. All of us will be up there together, all of us! [Tutti noi ci troveremo lassù, tutti.] It is beautiful, it gives strength to the soul. Franciscus General Audience November 26, 2014
He was talking about Catholics, Orthodox, non-Catholics and even Muslims all going to heaven in a little rowboat, chug-a-lug
"Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) with fear and trembling work out your salvation."
Where does the interpretation come from that the pope said all human beings will be saved? He was talking to those at the General Audience. Was he saying those at the General Audience will be saved because they are obviously more serious about their faith? That may be presumptuous, but exactly where did he say all human beings will be saved? When he condemned the Mafia earlier this year, saying they were on the road to Hell, why would he say that if he thought all human beings are saved?
There’s such a desperation here and other places to get him that it leads to unclear thinking and the most uncharitable interpretations of his words.
I’ve criticized liberal dissenters for years but the Catholics more Catholic than the pope are getting to be just as big a pain. They also tear at the Church’s unity.
Not based on the above excerpt he wasn't. Is there a place where he says 'Catholics, Orthodox, non-Catholics and even Muslims'.
Because it is not in the above excerpt. All that excerpt identifies is the Church.
You've identified the problem inherent in the comments under discussion.
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"But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved."
That would mean there are NO SINNERS in the Catholic church. Sorry, but that one's hard to swallow, right along with catholicism. There's gonna be a whole lot of angry catholics come judgement day.
However this excerpt is interpreted is up to Catholics. I have noted that the context is The Church.
If the “real” church is only those who believe, then that would be one direction to take.
If the “real” church includes the tares as well as the wheat, then that would change the analysis.
He was talking to a Wednesday audience, which would probably be mostly if not entirely Catholic, but even so, he’s wrong. Not all Catholics are going to Heaven either.
Also, it has always been the understanding of the Church that there are many people in the Invisible Church, whether because they were virtuous pagans who never knew Christ or because things prevented them from being part of the visible Church, who are going to Heaven.
But this Pope is idiotic in saying everybody is going - to me it means that he regards human beings as no different from animals, with no free will and no moral authority, who just float off into the ether.
I keep wondering if he’s (a) malevolent; (b) stupid or (c) senile.
He’s extremely authoritarian and aggressive, but at the same time, I think he believes he’s doing the right thing, so I guess I wouldn’t call him malevolent.
He has a lot of trouble walking and his speech is very confused when he’s not reading from a text. He’s very leftwing, but I don’t think even that could account for some of his bizarre statements. Just my opinion, but I think he may have a touch of early dementia.
You ought to try reading that verse in context some time...But then you'd have to buy a bible...The Catholic religion didn't record the verses on either side of it, did they???
How could the mafia not make it to heaven??? They're all baptized Catholics...
But when he said “We” to those at the General Audience, where does the idea come from that he means all human beings will be saved?
[12] With fear: This is against the false faith, and presumptuous security of modern sectaries.
http://www.drbo.org/chapter/57002.htm
The Church doesn’t teach that the all baptized Catholics are saved and the Pope didn’t teach it at this audience. When the Pope says “We”, why do you think he is saying or believes that everyone at the General Audience will be saved? I think the pope was consoling and strengthening the faithful. I suppose a lot of them also go on websites where his words and what he means are wildly misinterpreted.
His remarks imply that all the human beings at his general audience will be saved. People hearing and reading these remarks may extrapolate further, and perhaps be misled regarding the necessity of "persevering to the end".
He sounds like most Novus Ordo, post-Vatican II priests.
And one of those traditions is that the Ecumenical Councils spoke infallibly (a tradition we Orthodox agree with, though not with their theory that the papal assent was what made the councils both Ecumenical and infallible). The Fifth Ecumenical Council explicitly condemned the view that all will be saved (called the apokatastasis) among the heretical doctrines of Origen which were condemned.
We're allowed to pray for all to be saved (indeed some commentators on the Kneeling Prayers of Pentecost hold that on that one occasion the Church corporately prays not only for all the souls confined in Hades, but even for the demons), and even hope that it might be so, but to teach that it will or must be so is heresy. And this is a point on which our separated Latin brethren have traditionally agreed.
The Church also doesn’t teach that we can presume at any moment we are going to Heaven; something Francis apparently presumes for himself.
“apparently”
Do you read hearts?
Actually, there is no need for ebbtide to read his heart here. He has said (quite clearly in fact) that all there will go to Heaven. That is not Catholic teaching.
No, I don't read hearts; I read words. Try it sometime.
All of us will be up there (in Heaven) together, all of us!
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