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Millennial Series: Part 23: Premillennialism and the Tribulation
Bible.org ^ | 1955 | John F. Walvoord

Posted on 11/23/2014 2:00:07 PM PST by wmfights

Pretribulationism (Continued)

Argument from the nature of the tribulation. Just as premillennialism is founded upon a literal interpretation of millennial passages, so pretribulationism is based upon a literal interpretation of the tribulation passages. A careful and literal exegesis of the Scriptures dealing with the tribulation reveal no evidence whatever that the church of the redeemed of the present age will go through the tribulation. This is brought out particularly in the Scriptural revelation of the nature of the tribulation.

Before ascertaining whether the church will pass through the tribulation, it is of utmost importance to understand first what the Scriptures teach about this coming period. Practically all types of posttribulationism are built upon confusion of tribulation in general, which characterizes various ages, and the great tribulation, which is the predicted future time. For instance, George H. Fromow answers the question of whether the church will pass through the great tribulation by countering: “The Church is already passing through ‘the Great Tribulation,’ according to the sense of Rev vii, vv. 13, 14 …Rev vii . is the only passage where we find the Tribulation called ‘great.’ Its use as embracing the whole of the Church’s course, corresponds with the entire record of the Scriptural history of the redeemed. ‘Great’ thus covers the entire period of the history of the redeemed people of God, of ‘Saints,’ or ‘Gracious Ones,’ or ‘Church,’ however they may be described.”1 This quotation is notable because it illustrates two leading characteristics of posttribulationism which are essential to their conclusions: (1) confusion of the great tribulation with tribulation in general; (2) confusion of the church with saints as a whole. While posttribulationists sometimes avoid the first, they seldom avoid the second. As a study of the tribulation will bring out, “…not one syllable of Scripture affirms that the church goes through the great tribulation, or even enters that awful period.”2

The Old Testament reveals that the tribulation deals with (1) the nation Israel; (2) the pagan Gentile political powers; (3) saints who are described as either Israelites or Gentiles. It is certain that the true church cannot be equated with the Gentile political powers, though the apostate church of the tribulation period is under the control of the political ruler of that time. Only by spiritualization, characteristic of amillennialism, can the nation Israel be considered the same as the church. The Old Testament revelation which specifies the judgment of Israel and the Gentile powers as the objective of the tribulation period by so much declares that the tribulation does not concern itself with the church, the body of believers in this present age. The fact that saints are mentioned proves only that there will arise in that period some who believe and are saved. A survey of tribulation passages will demonstrate these facts.

One of the first references to the tribulation is found in Deuteronomy 4:29-30: “But from thence ye shall seek Jehovah thy God, and thou shalt find him, when thou searchest after him with all thy heart and with all thy soul. When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, in the latter days thou shalt return to Jehovah thy God, and hearken unto his voice.” The tribulation here is revealed as preparatory for the restoration of the nation Israel, and therefore the preparation of Israel for the coming kingdom is an outstanding aspect of the period.

Another important Old Testament reference dealing with the tribulation is found in Jeremiah 30:4-11. In this passage the tribulation is declared to be “the time of Jacob’s trouble” (v. 7 ) and as unprecedented in its severity (cf. Matt 24:21). The revelation continues, however, with the glad announcement, “he shall be saved out of it” (v. 7 ). The Gentiles are described as being judged and Israel is delivered from her oppressors. Jehovah is to be the God of Jacob and David is to be raised up to be their king (v. 9 ). Israel will be regathered from near and far and shall return to the land (v. 10 ). The destiny of Israel and the nations is contrasted in these words: “For I am with thee, saith Jehovah, to save thee: for I will make a full end of all the nations whither I have scattered thee, but I will not make a full end of thee; but I will correct thee in measure, and will in no wise leave thee unpunished” (v. 11 ). Again in this passage, both Jews and Gentiles are declared to be the objects of divine dealings in the tribulation, but the church, composed of true believers, is not in view at all.

Daniel supplies much material on the tribulation which falls into the same pattern. The seventieth “week” of Daniel,3 the latter part of which is the time of great tribulation, describes the coming of the “one that maketh desolate”—the evil world-ruler of the great tribulation (Dan 9:27). The period is concerned with “thy people” (Dan 9:24) which can be no other than the Jewish people in this context. In Daniel 12:1, “a time of trouble” for “the children of thy people” is described. Like Jeremiah 30:7, this period is declared to be “such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time” (Dan 12:1). It is declared to culminate in deliverance: “and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book” (Dan 12:1). The reference to “thy people” is clearly a reference to the Jewish nation which shall be delivered at the end of the tribulation period.

None of the Old Testament passages nor any of the multiplied references in the Minor Prophets includes the church of the present age in its foreview of the tribulation. It is universally presented as dealing with the nation Israel and with the Gentile nations. Only by unwarranted identification of the church with Israel and by ignoring the context can the church be drawn into the picture.

What is true of passages in the Old Testament dealing with the tribulation is also true of the New Testament. Posttribulationists tend to slide over the obvious fact that the church is never once mentioned in the New Testament as being in the tribulation period. A notable passage is Matthew 24:15-31, the context of which is definitely Jewish. The sign given is the abomination of desolation connected with desecration of the Jewish temple of that time. Instructions are given to those in Judea to flee to the mountains—another indication that Israelites are in view. Reference is made to the Sabbath, a Jewish institution (Matt 24:20) and they are told to pray that their flight be not on the Sabbath—a day in which their flight would be very obvious.

Posttribulationists, while conceding that there is no reference to the church as such, seize upon the word “elect” found in Matthew 24:22, 31. Pretribulationists concede and uniformly teach that there will be elect, that is, saved people in the tribulation time. This fact does not in the slightest prove that these mentioned in this way belong to the church, the body of Christ. All saved people of all ages as individuals are elect. Israel is also an elect nation, that is, specially chosen to fulfill divine purposes. The question is not whether there are any elect in the tribulation, but whether that portion of the elect which is called the church, the body of Christ, is ever found. As far as this passage is concerned, there is no evidence whatever for the presence of the church in this period. heaven” (Mark 13:27). The point is that pretribulationism is not hindered in the slightest by the form of expression that is used here, and posttribulationists are guilty of begging the question by assuming that this passage confirms their position. The fact is that the church is not mentioned at all in this passage by any distinctive title such as the word church or the term body of Christ, or any other term peculiarly a reference to the church. It is not claimed that this passage proves pretribulationism, but it is fair to claim that it does not off er any evidence whatever against it.

The argument of Reese that the gathering of the elect is positive proof that the translation of the saints takes place at this time is another instance of reading into the passage what it does not say. Reese states: “The assertion of Kelly’s in his Second Coming (p. 211) that there is no rapture at Matt. xxiv.31 , is as bold as it is unfounded. Oar Lord in that passage gave a perfect picture of the assembling of the saved of this Dispensation by means of a rapture; St. Mark even used for ‘gather’ the verbal form of the same word used for ‘gathering’ in 2 Thess. ii.1 , where Paul refers to the Rapture. To unbiased minds the gathering of the saved, or the Elect, in Matt. xxiv.31 , is the prototype of Paul’s teaching in 1 Thess. iv.16-17 , and 2 Thess. ii.1 .”6 The logical fallacy of this statement should be apparent. Reese argues because there is a gathering at the translation that therefore every mention of a gathering must be the same event. The truth is that there will be a gathering of the church, the body of Christ, at the translation, before the tribulation. There will also be a gathering after the tribulation which will be more inclusive. Matthew says nothing about a translation and the idea of translation is foreign to any passage dealing with the coming of Christ to establish His kingdom. There will be no translation then, though there will be a resurrection of righteous dead. Matthew says nothing about the resurrection either. It should be clear that Matthew’s revelation deals with the gathering of the elect as an event subsequent to all that has gone before.

The major Scriptural passage on the tribulation period is the Book of Revelation, chapters 4-19 . Here in fifteen chapters in the most graphic language possible the great catastrophic time of trouble is unfolded. Any reasonably literal interpretation of this portion of Scripture will sustain the point of view that the events herein described have never been fulfilled and comprise the awful period of human history still ahead which will culminate in the “revelation of Jesus Christ,” the second advent proper. It should be borne in mind that the Book of Revelation deals with the revelation of Jesus Christ to an unbelieving world as its God and Judge. The description of the tribulation time is the fitting frame to the picture, giving the events preceding the climactic day of the Lord.

It is notable that in this extended portion of Scripture there is not one mention of the church, the body of Christ. After the message to the seven churches in Asia, obviously contemporary to the first century, not one reference is found to the church or any other title peculiar to believers of this present age. To be sure, saints are mentioned both in heaven and on earth, but this general reference is not a hindrance to the pretribulational position. The church is also in view in the figure of marriage in Revelation 19 picturing the coming of the wife of the Lamb, but this is in connection with the second advent and does not constitute any problem. Like passages previously considered, the Book of Revelation presents the tribulation as having the divine purpose of purging the nation Israel and bringing them to repentance and of judging and destroying the Gentile political power of that day. The entire program as revealed in the Book of Revelation is without relevance to the present purpose of God of forming a body of believers from Jews and Gentiles to constitute the bride of Christ.

It is, of course, conceded that there are many passages which teach that even the church will have a measure of tribulation while on earth. Christ told His disciples plainly, “In the world ye shall have tribulation” (John 16:33). Paul preached “that through many tribulations we must enter into the kingdom of God” (Acts 14:22; cf. 2 Tim 3:12). This is taken as proving beyond question that the church will go through the future tribulation by some posttribulationists.7 It illustrates the illogical thinking which confuses Scriptural teaching on tribulation in general which abides through the age with the future distinctive period of tribulation declared to be unprecedented. The same passage cannot refer to both. The great tribulation is always presented in Scripture as a future time of trouble while the state of difficulty and persecution experienced by the early church was clearly contemporary. Posttribulationism has not proved anything until it has proved that the church, the body of Christ, will be in that prophesied period of unprecedented trouble. This is, however, impossible, as none of the passages which deal with this tribulation period mention the church.

Not only is there no mention of the church in any passage describing the future tribulation, but there are specific promises given to the church that deliverance from that period is assured. According to 1 Thessalonians 5:9, Christians are promised, “For God appointed us not unto wrath, but unto the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.” The wrath of God will be poured out upon the world during the great tribulation. Revelation 6:17 states, “For the great day of their wrath is come; and who is able to stand?” The character of the judgments which will fall is such that they will affect everyone—famine, pestilence, sword, earthquake, stars falling from heaven. The only way one could be kept from that day of wrath would be to be delivered beforehand. The same context in 1 Thessalonians 5 also affirms that the believer will not be overtaken by the day of destruction like a thief in the night and that the believer is not to be included with the children of darkness who are doomed for destruction. Instead of being appointed to wrath and sudden destruction as children of darkness, believers are declared to be appointed to salvation and to living together with Him.

1 Thessalonians 1:9-10 speaks in similar vein. Jesus is declared to be the one “who delivered us from the wrath to come.” The possibility of escaping the coming day of trial is predicted in Luke 21:36: “But watch ye at every season, making supplication, that ye may prevail to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”

The church at Philadelphia is promised: “Because thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial, that hour which is to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth” (Rev 3:10). As the translators have made clear, the thought of the Greek is to “keep from,” not to “keep in.” The promise was to be kept from “the hour” of trial, not just the trials in the hour. The primary promise to the church of Philadelphia was that they would not enter this hour of trial. Historically, it meant just that. The church at Philadelphia was not to enter the tribulation period. By application, if expositors are correct who find in the seven churches a foreshadowing of the entire church age, then the Philadelphia church, representing the true and faithful church, is promised deliverance before the hour comes. While it may be debatable to what extent this constitutes absolute proof for pretribulationism, it gives no comfort whatever to posttribulationism.8

The Scriptures repeatedly indicate that Christians of this age are kept from wrath. Romans 5:9 states: “Much more then, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath of God through him.” This principle is illustrated in Scripture in such historic cases as the deliverance of Lot from Sodom, which is taken as a specific illustration of deliverance from wrath in 2 Peter 2:6-9. Noah and his family, delivered from the flood by the ark, constitute another illustration of the principle. Rahab at Jericho was also delivered from the doomed city. While illustrations cannot property be taken as absolute proof, they support the idea that God characteristically delivers believers from wrath designed for judgment upon the unbelievers. If God delivers the church before the time of tribulation, it will be in keeping with the general principle.

The nature of the tribulation as revealed in Scripture constitutes, therefore, an important argument supporting the teaching that the church will not go through the tribulation. It has been shown that a literal interpretation of the tribulation does not produce any evidence that the church will be in this period. Important passages such as Deuteronomy 4:29-30; Jeremiah 30:4-11; Daniel 9:24-27; 12:1 ; Matthew 24:15-31; Revelation 4-19 ; 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10; 5:4-9 do not indicate that the church will be in the tribulation period. It has been shown that the purpose of the tribulation is to purge and judge Israel and to punish and destroy Gentile power. In neither aspect is the church the object of the events of the period. In addition to these general arguments, the Scriptures also indicate that the believer in this present age will be kept from the time of wrath (1 Thess 1:9-10; 5:4-10 ; 2 Pet 2:6-9; Rev 3:10). Taken as a whole, the study of the tribulation as revealed in Scripture does not afford any support to a posttribulational translation of the saints.

Argument from the nature of the church versus the nature of Israel. Much of the background for the differing points of view on pretribulationism as opposed to posttribulationism is found in different concepts of the church. While it is difficult to make an accurate generalization, usually those who sharply distinguish Israel and the church are both premillennial and pretribulational, while those who consider Israel and the church more or less the same concept, even if premillennial, tend to be posttribulational. The concept of the church as a distinct entity, peculiar to the present age since the Day of Pentecost, usually goes along with the idea that the church will be translated before the tribulation.

If the point of view is accepted that the church of the present age is distinctive, as argued in earlier discussion, it supports the idea that the church will not go through the tribulation. This is seen, first, in the nature of the professing church as compared to the nation of Israel. According to pretribulationism, at the time of the translation of the church all true believers are translated from earth to heaven, leaving only that portion of the professing church which was not genuinely saved. These professing but unsaved members of the organized church in the world continue on earth through the tribulation and form the nucleus of the ungodly, apostate church of the tribulation which becomes the state of religion of that time. In this sense only, the church goes through the tribulation. In like manner, the nation Israel enters the tribulation in an unsaved condition and proceeds through the purging experiences which culminate in the second advent and the separation of those in Israel who turn to Christ in that period from those who worship the Antichrist.

All points of view accept the conclusion that both Israel and the professing church go through the tribulation. The many Old Testament passages on the tribulation as well as the New Testament revelation make this clear and beyond dispute. Pretribulationism finds in these facts supporting evidence that the true church, the body of Christ, does not enter the tribulation by the very fact that the same Seriptures which frequently mention Israel and apostate Christendom never mention the true church as being in this period.

This is borne out by the contrast between the body of Christ and the professing church, both of which have a considerable body of Scripture describing their respective programs. The distinction between them, in a word, is the difference between mere profession and reality, between outward conformity and vital regeneration. The professing church moves on to its complete state of apostasy and ends in awful judgment. The true church is caught up to heaven to be the bride of the Son of God. The presence of the apostate church in the tribulation is one of its principal characteristics. The presence of the true church is wholly unnecessary. The distinctions between the true church and the professing church justify the widest difference in program and destiny.

Likewise, there is a graphic difference between the true church and true or spiritual Israel. In the present age, all who are Israelites by natural birth upon receiving Christ as Savior become members of the church, the body of Christ. By so much they are cut off from the particular promises and program of Israel and instead partake of the new program of God for the church on the same basis as Gentile believers. In other words, all who are true or spiritual Israel in the present age by this very fact are members of the church. Immediately after the translation of the church, however, Israelites who turn to God and trust in Christ have the privilege of being saved as individuals even in the tribulation period. When saved in this period Israelites lose none of their national promises. Their hope is the second advent of Christ, the coming of Christ as King and Messiah. While saved on the same basis of the death of Christ as saints in the present age, their program for the future is entirely different. Those who are martyred will be raised at the second advent (Rev 20:4-6). Those who survive the presecutions of this period will enter the millennium and become the objects of divine favor and blessing according to the kingdom promises. The contrasts herein provided in the prophetic Word serve to distinguish the future of spiritual Israel in the present age from spiritual Israel in the tribulation. The distinctions are built upon the differences between the church in the present age from saints of all preceding or succeeding periods.

In a word, prior to Pentecost there was no church, though there were saints among both Jews and Gentiles, who, while retaining their national characteristics, were nevertheless true saints of God. After Pentecost and until the translation there is no body of believers among either Gentiles or Israel except as found in the true church. After the translation of the church, there are no true believers in the professing and apostate church, but believers in that tribulation period retain their national characteristics as saved Gentiles or saved Jews. Never are tribulation saints given the special and peculiar promises given to the church in the present age. The nature of the church in contrast to Israel therefore becomes an argument supporting the pretribulation viewpoint. While these arguments have only relative strength, when added to preceding arguments and supported by those to follow they constitute confirming evidence.

Dallas, Texas

(Series to be continued in the Jan-March Number, 1955)

This article was taken from the Theological Journal Library CD and posted with permission of Galaxie Software.

1 George H. Fromow, Will the Church Pass through the Tribulation?, pp. 2-3.

2 C. I. Scofield, Will the Church Pass through the Great Tribulation?, p. 10.

3 For a good discussion of the future character of the seventieth week, see Robert D. Culver, Daniel and the Latter Days, pp. 135-60.

6 Ibid., p. 208.

7 George L. Rose, Tribulation Till Translation, pp. 76-77.

8 For further discussion, cf. E. Schuyler English, Re-Thinking the Rapture, pp. 85-91.


TOPICS: Charismatic Christian; Evangelical Christian; Theology
KEYWORDS: amillennialism; dispensationalism; premillennialism; rapture
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To: unlearner; terycarl; boatbums; wmfights

Terycarl, see unlearners post above. That is how one intelligently debates a subject.

Unlearner good post. Especially the part where you exhort to read God’s word and pray.


21 posted on 11/23/2014 7:20:15 PM PST by redleghunter (But let your word 'yes be 'yes,' and your 'no be 'no.' Anything more than this is from the evil one.)
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To: wmfights

Can you give any scriptural support to the Day of the Lord being or coinciding with the Great Tribulation?

There are many which I think clearly delineate between the two. 2 Thessalonians 2 indicates that the anti-Christ has to be revealed BEFORE the Day of the Lord. His revealing appears to be at the abomination of desolation which is at the middle of Daniel’s seventieth week.

As I mentioned earlier, the signs in the heavens follow the Great Tribulation but precede the Day of the Lord.

During Daniel’s seventieth week, the anti-Christ exalts himself, especially beginning with the abomination of desolation.

But in Isaiah 2, it says that the Lord alone will be exalted in that day. Isaiah 2:10-21 is clearly alluded to by Revelation 6 as to what happens in the Day of the Lord.

There are two aspects of Christ’s coming — one in which we meet Him in the air, another in which He plants His feet on the Mount of Olives. There is one in which His angels gather the elect from the four winds, but another in which the angels gather the wicked to remove them.

The problem is that when Christ describes His return “immediately after” the Great Tribulation, He specifically links this to the signs in the heavens and the gathering of the elect. Where does this event happen in the Revelation?

In Revelation 6 and 7, there are signs in the heavens, the coming of God’s wrath, the sealing of elect Jews, and the arrival of believers in Heaven from all nations.

When do Jews turn to Christ? Isn’t it at His visible return? They shall look on Him whom they have pierced and mourn. (See Zechariah 12:10.)

If not then, when? When is the whole purpose of Daniel’s seventieth week fulfilled? When will transgressions cease and all Israel be saved? Will Israel remain in ignorance and unbelief right up until Christ returns with His armies and destroys anti-Christ? When will they look on Him and repent?

If Christ comes at the beginning of Revelation 6, where do these many believers come from who are beheaded for the word of God in 6:9-11?

When does God send people “strong delusion” as in 2 Thessalonians 2? If He sends strong delusion, where do all these believers come from?

There are many martyrs in 6:9-11, and then there are multitudes that “come out of Great Tribulation” in 7:14. How is this possible when God says He will send the strong delusion on those who did not receive the love of the truth? If the Church has been raptured out before all these things, who will preach the gospel to them so these people believe?

If they did not believe during the dispensation of God’s super-abounding grace, with God’s Spirit poured out and convicting mankind, with messengers sent out to reap the harvest; how will they repent when God has ended this era and the era of wrath has begun, with no messengers left to preach the Gospel?

God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation. In this world we will have tribulation, but we are to be encouraged because Christ has overcome the world.


22 posted on 11/23/2014 7:24:50 PM PST by unlearner (You will never come to know that which you do not know until you first know that you do not know it.)
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To: wmfights

Is this ‘no tribulation for the church’ theology a way to say that there will be no suffering for those in the church?

I believe that the church will be caught up before the ‘man of sin’ is revealed, and then the destruction hits overdrive.

But, to think that there will not be some tough times before that, one can just look at the loss of life in WW1, communist Russia, WW2, communist China, etc. There is no guarantee that such tough times won’t happen some more before the tribulation really starts.

Don’t get me wrong, I do believe that absolute chaos could happen any day. The inventions of man make that quite possible.

The ark didn’t begin it’s cruise on a sunny day.


23 posted on 11/23/2014 9:58:25 PM PST by Zuriel (Acts 2:38,39....Do you believe it?)
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To: wmfights

Thanks for the ping. Another well written an researched article.


24 posted on 11/24/2014 4:43:03 AM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: unlearner; wmfights
Wow! So many questions. There are a few things one must understand before the answers to those questions will come clear.

First, there are seven years left of the 490 years God promised to deal specifically with Israel as a nation. That includes the laws given to that nation. In order for that to happen the "body of Christ" or the "assembly" of New Testament believers where their is no Jew or Gentile must end.

Second, the "assembly" of believers is collectively the "bride of Christ" and as such will be the bride in the wedding ceremony. In the ancient Jewish wedding ceremony the bride and groom were sequestered for seven days before coming out into the world as husband and wife. That seven days is the earthly symbol of Christ and His bride sequestered in heaven for seven years prior to coming into the world.

Third, those who study and understand prophesy will know who the anti Christ is the day the peace treaty with Israel is signed.

>>Can you give any scriptural support to the Day of the Lord being or coinciding with the Great Tribulation?<<

Simply a search for passages that reference the "day of the Lord" will show that it coincides with the destruction of the wickedness on earth.

>>His revealing appears to be at the abomination of desolation which is at the middle of Daniel’s seventieth week.<<

As I said earlier in this post. A simple study of prophesy shows that the anti Christ will be known to those who study prophesy the minute he signs the peace treaty at the beginning of the seven years. That's three and a half years before He sets up in the temple.

>>But in Isaiah 2, it says that the Lord alone will be exalted in that day. Isaiah 2:10-21 is clearly alluded to by Revelation 6 as to what happens in the Day of the Lord.<<

In Revelation 6 the Lord is not exalted He is feared. Nor do all of the idols disappear because we see later there is still idols of the anti Christ.

The phrase "in the day of the Lord" is highly misunderstood and much contested. Some believe the "day of the Lord" is a period of time. Others believe it to be the end of this age when Christ conquers the unbelieving world and His kingdom on earth begins. I believe that confusion comes from ascribing the phrase "in that day" to mean "the day of the Lord". I can't find proof of that connection anywhere in scripture. In Acts 2 Jesus says this:

Acts 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

That plus many verses that use the phrase "for the day of the LORD is at hand" when talking about the events of the tribulation period indicate that the actual "day of the Lord" is the end of the tribulation period and not the entirety of it. So the phrase "the day of the LORD is at hand" means that it is near. The events of the tribulation from Revelation 6 on are leading up to the "day of the Lord".

25 posted on 11/24/2014 7:38:54 AM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: unlearner; wmfights
>>When do Jews turn to Christ? Isn’t it at His visible return? They shall look on Him whom they have pierced and mourn. (See Zechariah 12:10.)<<

The only for sure saved from the nation of Israel are the 144,000 comprised of 12,000 chosen from each tribe. The term "look on Him whom they have pierced and mourn" doesn't necessarily mean they are saved. In Revelation 1:7 we read this;

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

So we see that it's all the people of the earth that will mourn, not just the saved.

>>If Christ comes at the beginning of Revelation 6, where do these many believers come from who are beheaded for the word of God in 6:9-11?<<

Just as their were those saved prior to Christ there will be those saved after the "assembly" is "caught up". God's word (scripture) will still be available and there will be preaching and witness led by the two witnesses.

>>When does God send people “strong delusion” as in 2 Thessalonians 2? If He sends strong delusion, where do all these believers come from?<<

Look at the context.

2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

The strong delusion is given those who "received not the love of the truth". The believers are those who did receive the love of truth and are killed for that belief. Those are the ones who would not follow the anti Christ.

26 posted on 11/24/2014 8:27:05 AM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: Zuriel
>>The ark didn’t begin it’s cruise on a sunny day.<<

But Noah and his family and all the animals had been taken in before any of the rains came.

Genesis 5:15 So they went into the ark to Noah, by twos of all flesh in which was the breath of life. 16 And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the LORD shut him in.

27 posted on 11/24/2014 8:38:04 AM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: CynicalBear

I went through this process years ago as a teenager when I realized that the pre-tribulational rapture was a nice paradigm which can simplify many eschatological issues tied up with a pretty bow; but it cannot be proved from scripture. After years of study I had to resign myself to admitting I just could not understand the passages but I could see that the pre-tribulational rapture explanation had holes that could not be reconciled with many scriptures.

There are still many things I do not understand, but I have found that there are many answers that can be found straight from scripture rather than seeking to impose a paradigm on them, no matter how attractive the paradigm is.

“First, there are seven years left of the 490 years God promised to deal specifically with Israel as a nation. That includes the laws given to that nation. In order for that to happen the ‘body of Christ’ or the ‘assembly’ of New Testament believers where their is no Jew or Gentile must end.”

Paul clearly taught that the New Covenant explicitly does not annul God’s promises to Israel. The existence of a church where there is “no Jew or Gentile” does not preclude the actual existence of Israel or Jew or Gentile. That is not the meaning. It also says there is neither male, nor female. He is referring to the doing away of a hierarchical religious order whereby we ALL now have direct access to God through Christ.

Israel is a branch broken off, and Gentiles are called a wild olive branch which has been grafted in. Paul explains that Israel will be grafted in again.

Again, Christ taught that there were other sheep of His which he would bring into the fold, and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

There is no scriptural reason to require that God end His work in the Church on earth in order to fulfill His promises and prophecies from the Old Testament. Simultaneously to God working through Israel in the Old Testament, He also raised up other nations and worked His will in them as well.

The passage you cited in Acts 2 ties the dispensation of grace to the end times. It refers to Joel’s prophecy of the coming of the Holy Spirit and the coming of the Day of the Lord. Were these prophecies for the Church or Israel? Obviously both.

“That seven days is the earthly symbol of Christ and His bride sequestered in heaven for seven years prior to coming into the world.”

I do not find that the scripture teaches this plainly or explicitly. Therefore, it a doctrine of men. It could very well be true that the Church does spend seven years in Heaven with Christ before the final establishing of His kingdom on earth. But if so, it cannot be seven years that include the anti-Christ’s rise to power, signing of the seven-year treaty, or his breaking of the treaty and forcing the world to worship him as if he is God. These things clearly take place BEFORE the rapture and Day of the Lord according to 2 Thes. 2.

“As I said earlier in this post. A simple study of prophesy shows that the anti Christ will be known to those who study prophesy the minute he signs the peace treaty at the beginning of the seven years. That’s three and a half years before He sets up in the temple.”

This sounds good on a superficial level. And I hope my tone does not come across harsh or rude or condescending. I respect your opinion as well as many, many others who share your view. Yet, I find it impossible to reconcile this position with 2 Thes. 2.

What does it mean by “revealing” of the anti-Christ? On the surface, it does seem to imply the discovery of his identity. Yet, this does not fit the passage. The passage ties his revealing to an event. The event is the abomination of desolation which is explicitly taught to be in the exact middle of the seven-year treaty.

Notice the order of events. Here is the passage under discussion:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-12
Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

This is the NKJV which capitalizes “He” when referring to the one who restrains because the translators apparently accept the popular view that the restrainer is the Holy Spirit. But this cannot be the case.

The Thessalonians were apparently worried that they had missed the rapture. They were suffering terrible persecution and some thought this was part of the Day of the Lord wrath they had learned about from Paul. He explains that the Day of the Lord (or here “Day of Christ”) could not have arrived yet because of two events which had not happened. One is something called the “falling away”. Remember that Christ taught that many would be offended because of Him and that family members would betray each other. This happens prior to the abomination of desolation. The second thing that had not happened is the anti-Christ had not been revealed.

The Thessalonians already knew (because Paul had taught them) that anti-Christ had not been revealed because the restrainer had not been removed.

Now if the restrainer is the Holy Spirit, it would mean the church had also been removed. This would be like saying, “Brothers, you know you haven’t missed the rapture because the rapture hasn’t taken place. You know the Day of the Lord isn’t here because it is not here. You know the anti-Christ isn’t here because he is not here.”

What encouragement would that be?

If the Holy Spirit must be “taken out of the way” first, and thus the Church will be gone before the anti-Christ can be revealed, then the anti-Christ will never be revealed to the Church because the Church would not be here. It has to mean something different.

Paul here refers to a restrainer they already knew about. How is it that 2000 years later we do not know about this restrainer? Remember, the rapture of living believers was a mystery not revealed in the Old Testament. The Old Testament tells of the first and second coming of Christ. It tells of the resurrection. But it does not tell of the rapture of living believers. So Paul showed this mystery of how some believers would not die.

The Old Testament also reveals the seventieth week, the anti-Christ, the abomination of desolation, and the restrainer. Paul is not revealing a mystery here. He is referring to something believers of that day already knew. Christ and Paul and Peter and James and Luke and others alluded to things taught in Daniel. It was the exposition of Daniel that gives us much of our New Testament understanding of prophecy, including the rapture and other end times events.

There is an event which takes place in Heaven exactly in the middle of Daniel’s seventieth week: Satan is cast out of Heaven along with his angels. Who casts him out? Michael. What does Satan do when cast to the earth? He goes after Israel. Who is the protector of Israel? According to Daniel 12, it is Michael. But Michael steps aside exactly at the middle of Daniel’s seventieth week, and the Great Tribulation begins:

Daniel 12:1
At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.

Simultaneously, there is another event that occurs exactly in the middle of Daniel’s seventieth week: the abomination of desolation in which anti-Christ enters the third temple and declares himself God for the world to worship. This coincides with Satan’s working with signs and wonders.

So Paul encourages the Thessalonians to persevere. The Day of Christ had not yet arrived. Their rest would come when Christ returns. But the Day of the Lord (and the rapture) would not come before certain signs occurred first. He mentions two: a falling away (apparently of professing followers of Christ), and the abomination of desolation.

Think about this carefully. If you were to hear in the news that a world leader has signed a seven-year treaty with Israel, would this be the “revealing” of anti-Christ Paul writes of in 2 Thes. 2 which must occur BEFORE the day of Christ? If so, how is it that the restrainer has been removed if the restrainer is the Holy Spirit?

Here is the order: the falling away, the removal of the one who restrains (which may or may not be before the falling away), the revealing of anti-Christ, and the Day of Christ.

Keep in mind that the timing of the coming of Christ for His bride is synonymous with the coming of the Day of the Lord. These are not separated by years of time. It is indefensible to say that the Holy Spirit is the Restrainer who restrains until the beginning of Daniel’s seventieth week, but the actual Day of the Lord comes sometime after the abomination of desolation.

1 Thessalonians 5:2
For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.

The Day of the Lord comes as a thief. Christ comes as a thief. He does so at the end of the Great Tribulation. See Matthew 24:36-44.

How do all of the events of Matthew 24 line up with Revelation 6 and then Christ says He will return IMMEDIATELY afterward? Yet, Revelation has many more chapters in which God’s wrath and judgment are poured out on the earth which are not part of the narrative of Matthew 24.

How can He say when you see these things come to pass, look up if these same exact things happen in Revelation 6, but He does not return then (i.e. chapter 7)?


28 posted on 11/24/2014 12:58:53 PM PST by unlearner (You will never come to know that which you do not know until you first know that you do not know it.)
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To: Zuriel; wmfights; CynicalBear
But, to think that there will not be some tough times before that, one can just look at the loss of life in WW1, communist Russia, WW2, communist China, etc. There is no guarantee that such tough times won’t happen some more before the tribulation really starts.

I was thinking on this yesterday and it occurred to me that all the tribulation believers endure and have endured ever since the first century is man's inhumanity to man. But, the Tribulation will be different because it will be God's righteous judgment UPON mankind leading up to the final judgment at the Great White Throne after the thousand year reign of Christ on earth. Ungodliness and evil will be so great upon the earth at that time that EVERYTHING that God rains down upon humanity will be rightfully deserved. That is why I do not believe the Bride of Christ will go through that time and will have already been caught up (raptured) when all that starts happening. Once the good influence from Holy Spirit filled believers has been taken away, the full brunt of desperately evil humanity will develop and hit overdrive, as you said.

29 posted on 11/24/2014 2:40:36 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: Zuriel
But, to think that there will not be some tough times before that, one can just look at the loss of life in WW1, communist Russia, WW2, communist China, etc. There is no guarantee that such tough times won’t happen some more before the tribulation really starts.

We could be in the lead up tough times as you put it already. Christians have been beheaded in Africa for some time already, and now in the ME. The Chinese Christians have been in a constant state of persecution.

30 posted on 11/24/2014 3:19:33 PM PST by redleghunter (But let your word 'yes be 'yes,' and your 'no be 'no.' Anything more than this is from the evil one.)
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To: unlearner
>>I went through this process years ago as a teenager<<

I don't know how many years that has been for you but I've been studying this for nearly 50 years now. That includes consulting the Greek and Hebrew not trusting the English translations. I have found there is no other interpretation that agrees with ALL of scripture than what is referred to as the pre trib rapture. I don't have time right now to address your post fully but will either later or tomorrow. A couple of quick remarks however.

The sequence of events in 2 Tim is not set.

The ancient marriage customs were well established already in Genesis exampled by the marriages of Rebekah, Leah, and Rachel. It consisted of the Contract, the Consummation, then the Celebration.

The "He who restrains" can only be the Holy Spirit.

>>What does it mean by “revealing” of the anti-Christ?<<

The Greek word translated is ἀποκαλύπτω (apokaluptó) which means I uncover, bring to light, reveal. The form of the word used means "shall have been revealed". Looking to other passages we know that it's the anti Christ who makes the covenant with many. We also know the time frame for God's dealing with Israel alone again is 7 years as seen in Daniel's prophecy.

31 posted on 11/24/2014 3:25:24 PM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: boatbums; Zuriel; wmfights
>>But, the Tribulation will be different because it will be God's righteous judgment UPON mankind leading up to the final judgment at the Great White Throne after the thousand year reign of Christ on earth.<<

That period of time is called the "wrath" of God. The tribulations that Christians have gone through are not the result of God's "wrath". It's the "wrath" of God that Christians have been promised to never have to endure.

32 posted on 11/24/2014 4:17:44 PM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: CynicalBear; boatbums; Zuriel; wmfights
Thank you for your detailed posts.

That period of time is called the "wrath" of God. The tribulations that Christians have gone through are not the result of God's "wrath". It's the "wrath" of God that Christians have been promised to never have to endure.

What a great point. Walvoord also points out another aspect of the Great Tribulation that seperates it from the tribulations we suffer now.

From the article:

The great tribulation is always presented in Scripture as a future time of trouble while the state of difficulty and persecution experienced by the early church was clearly contemporary.

33 posted on 11/25/2014 4:14:08 PM PST by wmfights
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To: unlearner

I read both your comments so far. Where do you see the ‘caught up’ or rapture happening within context of the seals, trumpets and vial (bowl) judgments?


34 posted on 11/26/2014 11:39:37 AM PST by redleghunter (But let your word 'yes be 'yes,' and your 'no be 'no.' Anything more than this is from the evil one.)
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To: redleghunter

There is no explicit catching up of believers in Revelation. So, whether a person is pre-trib, post-trib, mid-trib, or pre-wrath; we can only infer when the rapture occurs by comparing other scriptures on the subject.

Revelation 7:9 & 14 refer to “a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb... who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”

The pre-tribulational rapture position is generally that the 144,000 sealed Jews evangelize the world which results in a massive conversion of the lost which we see here as tribulation saints. However, there is nothing in the passage indicating the sealed Jews won these people to Christ. There were saints killed for the word of God and testimony of Christ BEFORE the 144,000 are sealed (6:9).

So where do they come from? This is a question actually posed to John by the angel, and seems to be somewhat of a riddle. How do what seems to be perhaps billions of believers get from the earth and tribulation to the throne of God? Did they all die from disease, war and famine? Were they all martyred?

Notice that martyrdom is characteristic of what happens during the fifth seal. Yet is says more will be martyred. Already more than a fourth of the world’s population has died during the fourth seal. But if war and disease and famine were the means of them entering God’s presence, why are they mentioned after the fifth and sixth seals? How are these distinct from those who died during the earlier seals? If they died, how did they die?

Some might speculate that these represent saints from ages past, but it is clear that this group specifically came out of THE Great Tribulation. They were alive on the earth during it. And now they have entered Heaven.

So there are two and only two possibilities: either these billions died and they are the souls of dead believers (but not the Church), or they are the Church raptured into Heaven out of the Great Tribulation. If there is any other alternative, I would like to know what it is.

If you take the position they all died, then it is necessary to explain the context. Did they die apart from all the judgments of seals 1 through 6? If so, why was the means of their death omitted? If they represent the cumulative deaths of believers since the rapture, why is their chronology placed here? Why does it come after the sealing of the 144,000?

So, in answer to your question, I am simply narrowing down the possibilities. Either they died during the Great Tribulation or they were raptured out of it. It does not explicitly say they were raptured. But, it also does not explicitly say they died (unlike the souls of those who were “slain” in 6:9).

What support can be provided to indicate they entered Heaven by death?

I will return to my earlier premise that Revelation 6 describes identical events Christ spoke of to His disciples in Matthew, Mark and Luke.

Let’s review them.

1) Deception, False Christs, False Peace - Matthew 24:5; Mark 13:5,6; Luke 21:8; Revelation 6:2 (1st Seal)

2) War and rumors of war - Matthew 24:6,7; Mark 13:7,8; Luke 21:9,10; Revelation 6:3,4 (2nd Seal)

3) Famine - Matthew 24:7; Mark 13:8; Luke 21:11; Revelation 6:5,6 (3rd Seal)

4) Disease, troubles and natural disasters - Matthew 24:7; Mark 13:8; Luke 21:11; Revelation 6:7,8 (4th Seal)

NOTE: Numbers 1-4 are called the “beginning of sorrows”.

5) “Tribulation”, persecution and martyrdom of the saints - Matthew 24:9; Mark 13:9; Luke 21:12; Revelation 6:9-11 (5th Seal)

NOTE: Christ taught that “many will be offended” for His name’s sake in Matthew 24:10. This means many who identify as “Christian” and followers of Jesus will deny Christ because of the persecution, tribulation and betrayal by friends (so-called) and family. This incidentally corresponds to one of the two things that Paul taught must happen prior to the Day of the Lord (and thus the return of the Lord which is chronologically synonymous). That is the “falling away” or apostasy. See 2 Thessalonians 2. This time of tribulation of SAINTS escalates into the Great Tribulation when the abomination of desolation occurs. See Matthew 24:21; Mark 13:19; and Luke 21:22.

6) Signs in the heavens, specifically the darkening of the sun and moon (immediately AFTER the Great Tribulation) - Matthew 24:29; Mark 13:24,25; Luke 21:25,26; Revelation 6:12-14 (6th Seal)

7) Return of the Lord / Day of the Lord - Matthew 24:30,31; Mark 13:26,27; Luke 21:27,28; Revelation 6:17 (subsequent to the 6th seal, prior to 7th seal)

Christ taught in Luke 21:28, “Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.” These signs are a unique sequence of events within human history. They have never happened before and will never happen again. They indicate that the return of the Lord is at hand. So, Revelation 6 MUST represent the SAME sequence of events because Christ taught they are the way those alive at the time will know He is about to appear.

Remember that Christ taught the Olivet discourse in answer to His disciples’ questions of when these things would happen and what would be the signs of His return and end of the world. He told them they could not know the time. However, He did give them the signs that would proceed the end of the world and also His return. The signs corresponding to the opening of the seven seals in Heaven thus CANNOT be merely coincidentally the same. These are specific signs of the end of the world and of Christ’s return.

What happens when the world sees the Day of Wrath has arrived? They hide and flee in terror according to Revelation 6:15-18. They attribute their terror to Christ (the Lamb). What did Christ say people will do when He returns at the end of the Great Tribulation? Christ said “all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.” (Matthew 24:30)

I am not taking a man made paradigm and trying to force it into these passages. I am taking the actual passages and trying to interpret them by comparing other passages. I have never seen anyone demonstrate a pre-tribulational rapture exegetically. It is always done by postulating the position as true and then using proof texts in the same manner cults do with their false doctrines. I am not trying to be slanderous or call pre-tribbers heretics. I am just pointing out that how we arrive at our doctrinal position is very important.

Christ says that there will be signs in the heavens IMMEDIATELY after the Great Tribulation followed by the sign of His coming in which the elect would be gathered. If this does not happen after Revelation 6, when does it happen?

How can you fit all of the other trumpet and bowl judgments into this same period? While these may not be strictly chronological, it appears these for the most part represent a separate time period which could be described as the Day of Wrath (for the world) or the Day of Christ (for the believer) or the Day of the Lord in general.

When He comes with His saints at the end of this period, in Revelation 19, there is no catching up of believers, but the removal of the wicked before Christ’s kingdom is set up.

So I believe it is well-supported that those who enter Heaven in Revelation 7 are believers who come out of the Great Tribulation by way of rapture rather than death based on a comparative analysis of the Olivet Discourse and the six seals of Revelation 6.

If I am wrong about any of this I hope to be corrected by those who know more than I, and by continued prayerful study of the Bible. I do not claim to know all of the answers, but it does seem clear to me that it is extremely important for believers to understand that we will face extreme persecution before the return of the Lord. We look for His return, not as an escape from tribulation, but as an escape from the wrath God is about to pour out on an unbelieving world. We need to watch and be ready, but we also need to wait patiently if His return is delayed longer than we had anticipated.


35 posted on 11/26/2014 11:43:04 PM PST by unlearner (You will never come to know that which you do not know until you first know that you do not know it.)
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To: unlearner

Have you ever read, where Jesus, said anything about, the books written after His Rising?


36 posted on 11/26/2014 11:49:27 PM PST by RedHeeler
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To: wmfights

mark


37 posted on 11/27/2014 12:09:54 AM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: RedHeeler

I’m not sure what you mean. All of the New Testament was written after He rose. His disciples were chosen to be witnesses of what they heard Him say and saw Him do, especially His death and resurrection. Their eye-witness testimony is an essential element of the Gospel.

John, who wrote Revelation, was the last living apostle. He also heard the Olivet discourse directly.

Christ gave unique authority to the apostles. As opposed the Catholic concept of apostolic succession, we protestants generally regard the New Testament as carrying that direct apostolic authority.

John 15:20, 26, 27
Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also...
But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me. And you also will bear witness, because you have been with Me from the beginning.

John 20:21b
As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.

Acts 1:8
But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.


38 posted on 11/27/2014 11:48:41 AM PST by unlearner (You will never come to know that which you do not know until you first know that you do not know it.)
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