Posted on 11/02/2014 3:14:08 PM PST by NYer
On All Souls Day, the Catholic Church offers prayers and liturgies for the repose of the dead. As Catholics, we are called by the Church to focus our spiritual energies to assist these poor souls, who, though saved, are still in need of purification. Our prayers and sacrifices assist them in this process of purification as a means used by God to communicate purifying grace to them. After all, He is the vine, we are the branches so that He produces his fruits of grace through us.
The practice of praying for the dead actually predates Christianity. In 2 Maccabees 12: 41-45, Judas offers prayers and sacrifices for his fallen comrades to make “atonement for the dead that they might be absolved from their sin.” Some argue that the books of the Maccabees are not inspired scripture. Leaving that argument aside for now, we can at least look at them as historical books detailing accepted pious practices of God’s people some 300 years before Christ.
If that is the only place in the Bible where we find any reference to purgatory, many Protestant Christians argue, then that is a weak support for such a practice. Fortunately, we know as Catholics that all of our doctrines are indeed found in the Word of God, as is the doctrine of Purgatory. Hence what follows is a biblical understanding of the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory.
The book of Genesis recounts for us the far reaching repercussions of Adam and Eve’s disobedience in the Garden. This sin, we find, brought about four consequences which I will summarize here (Gen 3: 16-24):
First, their sin brings about disharmony between persons. God tells Eve that both her relationship to her husband and children will now be characterized by pain and mistrust (Gen 3:16). Further, God has to make garments for man and woman because now, as the text implies, they feel shame (Gen 3:21).
Second, their sin brings about disharmony between man and creation. God tells Adam that he will produce the fruit of the earth with toil and difficulty (Gen 3: 17). Even the ground itself is cursed because of their sin (Gen 3: 17).
Third, their sin brings about disharmony between man and himself. He no longer has spiritual control over his body; thus, his body returns to the dust of the ground (Gen 3: 19). Adam and Eve are no longer able to receive everlasting life (Gen 3: 22).
Lastly and most importantly, sin brings disharmony between God and man. This consequence results in mistrust and fear of God (Gen 3: 10), and, worse, spiritual death. Without God, neither physical nor spiritual life can be sustained (Gen 3: 19, 24).
The first three disharmonies mentioned above are called ‘Temporal punishments due to sin.’ Temporal refers to things pertaining to this world. The last disharmony, the disharmony with God, is called eternal punishment, because it refers to things pertaining to the eternal world with God.
All four of these disharmonies are healed by Christ. The only healing we experience fully in this life, however, is from eternal punishment–or disharmony with God. That’s why Christ is the One Mediator between God and man.
It should be clear that we don’t experience a full healing from the temporal disharmonies/punishments as Christians, because we still struggle. We experience suffering, illness, catastrophes, and even death. Yet, Christ heals these problems, too, it’s just that we don’t experience the full healing in the temporal sphere until He returns.
Until then, we are called to struggle for His Kingdom. As St. Paul puts it, “But we have this treasure (the healing grace of salvation) in earthen vessels, to show that the transcendent power belongs to God and not to us. We are afflicted in every way but not crushed; perplexed, but not driven to despair; persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed; always carrying around in the body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be manifested in our bodies.” (2 Cor 7-10)
To overcome these temporal disharmonies, we are called to cooperate with Christ’s power in grace so as to bring about the healing with Him in these areas. This is why we are called to pray, fast, and alms give so as to forgive our neighbor’s sins and be forgiven, and to receive the reward promised by our heavenly Father that we will once again regain temporal peace/harmony on earth and in heaven (Mt 6:5-23).
What happens if we die and are reconciled to God (the eternal punishment for sin), but have not entirely cooperated with grace to overcome the temporal punishments for sin? St. Paul gives us the answer in 1 Cor 3: 12-16. He says that after death, our works will be tested “as though by fire, and the fire will test what kind of work we have done,” and we will suffer loss, though we will still be saved (1 Cor 3:13-15).
This is a very clear passage regarding the purification (which we call purgatory) that takes place after death. This fire purifies us from our temporal disharmonies mentioned above, if we die without having them entirely purified in this life.
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“... what the Catholic Church today calls tradition is the same as what the apostles referred to as tradition...”
The Catholic Church is apostolic and there is no distinction at all between the apostles’ tradition and the Church’s traditions. They are one and the same and have been handed down intact since before the New Testament was even written.
For example - the breaking of the bread referred to in 1 Corinthians 11, 23 that St. Paul is referring to is the mass. The Corinthians knew this because it had been handed down as Paul had orally taught them when he first converted them in 52 AD. Most of them could not read, remember!
It is the exact same TRADITION (the liturgy of the eucharist) for breaking the bread that St. Paul is referring to.
The Corinthians already knew this because St. Paul had taught them the ritual when he first came among them BEFORE he wrote it down. Our mass is the very same because it has continued exactly as the Corinthian “breaking of the bread” ritual, without ever ceasing. It is the same breaking of the bread that St. Paul gave orally to the Corinthians.
The traditions are alluded to in scripture and everyone accepted them since the very beginning. (Not the traditions of men, the sacred traditions).
Indeed! Words DO mean things which is why I specifically said a person "who died with mortal sin on his soul" would go straight to hell per the RC catechism - as I posted from CCC. Did you read it? I was surprised that you apparently didn't comprehend my words and presumed I needed "correction". It appears that Catholics do plenty of word twisting all on their own! Perhaps the thrill of showing up a "prot" overcomes the importance of understanding what the person is actually saying.
And just to be more clear...I think the idea of Purgatory and the difference between "venial" and "mortal" sins is a crock. It negates far more Scriptural truths than confirms. One of many examples of how Roman Catholicism has lost the truth of the gospel it might have once had.
Prove it.
>>For example - the breaking of the bread referred to in 1 Corinthians 11, 23 that St. Paul is referring to is the mass.<<
That is scripture.
>>The Corinthians already knew this because St. Paul had taught them the ritual when he first came among them BEFORE he wrote it down.<<
It became scripture when he "wrote it down". So far you have upheld Sola Scriptura rather well.
>>The traditions are alluded to in scripture and everyone accepted them since the very beginning. (Not the traditions of men, the sacred traditions).<<
Now prove what the Catholic Church calls "tradition" that was not written down in scripture is the same as the apostles taught.
“Chance” has nothing to do with it! For I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day. My salvation is secure through Christ and nothing can pluck me from His hands.
Yes, right here is the rest of the passage:
So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure. (Philippians 2:12,13)
NOTE...it says "work OUT", not "work FOR". Can you appreciate the difference?
Perhaps his suffering the horrible death of crucifixion and persevering in his faith in the LORD Jesus Christ those last agonizing hours meant there was no need for any further refining. Compare him with blessed Stephen calling on the LORD while being stoned to death and contrast the two of them with Ananias, Sapphira, and Jezebel of Thyatira.
Seeing as the Bible, as the Divinely-inspired word of God, is given to everyone so that we may have teaching, reproof, correction, training in righteousness, and so that we may be complete, equipped for every good work. It's there to "bash" anyone who needs to be bashed.
I find it curious that you seem to only see Catholics being bashed by Scripture. Have you considered that it could be because they actually NEEDED it?
You are wrong.
There are plenty of "Protestants" that COMPLETELY understand Catholic doctrine and have every right to address topics as they come up on these forums. And, there are plenty of Catholics who have no idea what Scripture really says because they have been blinded to the truth by their "traditions" that nullify God's word. Don't you think everyone has the right to hear all sides or is there something to fear from letting that happen? How secure can someone be in their beliefs if they never have to defend them?
Just upthread another RC was talking about St. Dismas (the supposed “good” thief) and how he suffered for his sins on his execution cross (his own personal purgatory) and was why he DID go to heaven with Jesus. So, who’s right?
Says you.
One might say you are failing at attempting to read my mind and determine my motives. Save your prayers, I believe you need it more.
If they completely understood Catholic Doctrine, they would still be Catholic.
Don't you think everyone has the right to hear all sides or is there something to fear from letting that happen?
If you believe this then please present the muslim side, the Hindu side, the Jewish side, etc....
The fact is you are wrong. everyone has the right to hear the truth. Prots only have part of the truth, the entire deposit of faith can only be found in the Catholic Church.
You are wrong.
Apples and oranges, and totally dishonest comparison.
Says you.
From Scripture, how long is a day?
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