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Funny how the Christians who actually spoke Greek as their native language all their lives, and who studied the Greek Scriptures in the original, for 1500 years agreed with the Biblical doctrine that Mary is the "Panagia" --- based on "Kecharitomene."

And nobody was there to try to straighten 'em out until the German-speakers of the 16th century arrived to tutor them on the nuances of their own language!!

Με συγχωρείτε!

Μιλάτε Ελληνικά?

Funny how the Christians who actually spoke Greek as their native language all their lives, and who studied the Greek Scriptures in the original, for 1500 years agreed with the Biblical doctrine that Mary is the "Panagia" --- based on "Kecharitomene."

Not 1500 years. The first hint of panagia as a Marian title came in Origen's work, middle of the third century, and wasn't adopted in any official sense until about the eighth century. Thus, like so many of Rome's theological innovations, it cannot be traced to the First Century, but must first show up in some flamboyant author's work, catch on, and eventually become "that's the way it always was," even if it wasn't. I mean really. Origen? Did it have to be him?

Anyway, as has been much argued already in this forum, kecaritomene is nothing special in itself. It's built as a perfect passive participle inflection of caritow, "grace," and if appearing in a less controversial setting, would only mean "[one] having been [definitely] graced." And the same root is used of all believers in Ephesians 1:6, in which the inflected form is ecaritosen, being active, not passive, aorist and not perfect, first person plural and not second person singular. To take all the effects into account, the difference in translation would come down to this: To Mary: "[one] having been [definitely] graced.", To all believers; "[he] graced us" The "definitely" is added to capture the certainty of the perfect. But it's the same grace. No difference in quantity. Whatever is said about Mary using that term must be applied to all believers as well. So favor works equally well here. eulogemanoi in Matthew 25:34 has the same perfect participle and accomplished the same emphasis of certainty, "Come [all of you] having been [definitely] blessed of my father ..."

So we see the grammatical perfect here speaks not to grace as a quantity, but to the certainty of the past action. This is not fancy Greek. This is basic knowledge of how the perfect operates grammatically. It is egregious that certain apologists have tried to spin "perfect" into a theological meaning well beyond the limits of the grammar, but such a tactic cannot be effective with any but those who don't know the grammatical use of the term.

And as for pardoning you, sure, but what did you do? :)

And yes, I "speak" a wee bit of Koine, but modern Greek ain't the same animal, so no, none of that. Though I'm not against it. Just a time and activity problem.

Peace,

SR

The Greek word for "full" is plérés. Kecharitomene does NOT indicate "full". That Greek word for " full" (plérés) is used in the New Testament as having to do with grace but NEVER about Mary. It is used here:

Acts 6:8 Now Stephen, a man full of God's grace and power, performed great wonders and signs among the people.

We have direct Greek words declaring Stephen "full of Grace" but not for Mary. Catholics don't declare Stephen sinless yet he is the only one clearly declared "full of grace".

Then you used the term "Panagia" a Greek word meaning "all holy". Really? Mary is " all holy"?

1 Samuel 2:2 There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.

Funny how the Christians who actually spoke Greek as their native language all their lives, and who studied the Greek Scriptures in the original, for 1500 years agreed with the Biblical doctrine that Mary is the "Panagia" --- based on "Kecharitomene."

Oh c'mon now...You think everyone outside of Catholicism is ignorant of Christian history???

No one for 1500 years had the Greek in the original...Countless numbers of Christians were slaughtered for refusing to bow down to your Marian religion and its popes...

Funny how the Christians who actually spoke Greek as their native language all their lives, and who studied the Greek Scriptures in the original, for 1500 years agreed with the Biblical doctrine that Mary is the "Panagia" --- based on "Kecharitomene."

Most Eastern Orthodox churches dedicated to the Virgin Mary are called Panagia; the standard western Christian designation of "St. Mary" is rarely used in the Orthodox East, as Mary is considered the holiest of all human beings and therefore of higher status than the Saints, literally a "Saint in the superlative".

Kecharitomene “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you” ( Lk 1:28).

Using the EO terminology?

Strange...