Why do Protestant lay people hate clergy?

>> Unfortunately, you seem to lack the understanding of the differences between “Love” in English, and the many feelings and emotions that other languages are able to express so much more completely using their multiplicity of words.<<

Indeed other languages have more specific meaning to words. That’s why it was sloppy at best to use charity rather than love when translating agape. A much closer Greek word to our word charity would have been eleemosune (Definition mercy, pity esp. as exhibited in giving alms, charity the benefaction itself, a donation to the poor, alms) as we see used in Acts 9:36. So your statement above is an endictment of the use of the word charity as a translation of agape.

I have no desire to diminish you, but your position WRT our bodies is in total conflict with the scriptures.

Only on your end.

Our bodies must change because this physical world is to be destroyed, and we need a body that can live in the realm of God. Paul made this abundantly clear in 1Cor 15, as did Yeshua in his very technical discussion with Nicodemus.

Which is not in contention.

Paul made it clear also that this change cannot be made until the last trump, when Yeshua shows up in the cloud with his angels to gather his elect. Obviously those that have pre-deceased us no longer have Earthly flesh and blood bodies anyway, so the need for the incorruptible body is to be understood.

Nor is this disputed.

None of this has anything to do with the indwelling of the comforter; it is simply a life issue for our future dwelling place.

The issue is that, as said and shown, being born from above is that of being born of the Spirit, and which is being born of God and into the kingdom. And this birth is necessary to see the kingdom of God, as without the the Spirit one does not belong to Christ, while the Spirit is the pledge of the resurrection and what is to come.

The Scriptures tell believers they already have been born of the Spirit/of God by the word of God and unto living hope, while the resurrection is not described as a birth, but a change.

Thanks be to God.

Its not complicated./p>

1 Corinthians 1:18-31 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written, “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.”

Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”

1 Corinthians 2:1-5 And I, when I came to you, brothers, did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God with lofty speech or wisdom. For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling, and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

>> “The issue is that, as said and shown, being born from above is that of being born of the Spirit” <<

.
Yes!

But that does not happen until the last trump!

Nobody has yet been “born of the spirit.”

Only those that “endure to the end” will be “born of the spirit.” That is what Yeshua told us in Matthew 24, and it is also what all of the apostles writings tell us. If anyone were already “born of the spirit,” Matthew 7:23 would be a lie. The persons that Yeshua mentions in that chapter confessed his name, and worked in the gifts of the spirit, yet he said that “I never knew ye.”

“The faith of many shall wax cold...”
.

your words. own them.

your words. own them.

Not just proudly, but PROUDLY!!!!!I can explain it for you, I just can't understand it for you.

Nobody has yet been “born of the spirit.” Only those that “endure to the end” will be “born of the spirit.” That is what Yeshua told us in Matthew 24, and it is also what all of the apostles writings tell us. If anyone were already “born of the spirit,” Matthew 7:23 would be a lie. The persons that Yeshua mentions in that chapter confessed his name, and worked in the gifts of the spirit, yet he said that “I never knew ye.”

That is simply an assertion based upon the false premise already refuted. As shown, the only birth the NT knows of is that of being born of God, which is by the Spirit and into the spiritual kingdom of God.

Neither Mt. 24 or 7:23 speaks of being spiritually born, but the resurrection will merely change the bodies of believers who have already been born into the family of God and in His kingdom, and accepted in the Beloved and seated with Christ in heaven. (Eph. 1:6; 2:6)

And as said, having been born of God then those who die in faith will therefore will be resurrected and see the physical manifestation of the kingdom. Thus one must be born again to receive his new body, but which is not being begotten again by the word of truth unto a living hope. (Ja. 1:18; 1Pt. 1:3)

The judgment of Matthew 7:23, "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity," is obviously not due to having a body of flesh and blood, but due to the unregenerate dying in their sins, whom the Lord never knew.

The redeemed are already washed, sanctified and justified, (1Cor. 6:11) and whom the Lord knows, and while Scripture warns believers against casting away their faith, (Gal. 5:1-4; Heb. 3:12; 10:26,38) the cause of their damnation is that they were immoral unbelievers who merely did signs, as Judas likely did, but whom the Lord knew not, not having a spiritual relationship with.

"But if any man love God, the same is known of him." (1 Corinthians 8:3)

"And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ." (Galatians 4:6-7)

"But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain." (Galatians 4:10-11) (Galatians 4:9)

Even texts which do warn believers against casting away their faith is not contrary to them having been born from above, which is necessary to see the resurrection and the literal kingdom.

And it remains that the only spiritual birth is that which occurs in conversion, and is shown by love for God and each other, not just doing some signs.

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him." (1 John 5:1)

If I were a betting man; I'd say we have EXACTLY the same amount.

Perhaps. Augustine wrote about how he believed events of God was like a stone being cast into a pond. The closer one was to the event, the clearer God was. As we move out from those ripples, the more distorted our picture of God becomes.

I happen to think Augustine's analysis is correct. If so, then attitudes, reverence and actions towards God 500 years ago was much closer than they are now. Likewise, 1000 years ago would have been closer still as the events of the cross and our Lord Jesus was still closer. Consequently man devolves in his attitude towards God-he does not get better or even stays the same. One has no better example of this then the nation of Israel of the Old Testament.

Notice I said "christians" that refers to the posser wannabes, the prots. Catholics are Christians. Notice it is capitalized and there are no quotes around it. We are the original, and on these threads frequently the only Christians.

These guys have things that are extra-biblical; too; and make similar claims.

THEY want to 'protect' their product as well.

Media Letter

26 June 2008 — Salt Lake City (http://newsroom.lds.org/additional-resource/media-letter)

*The following is a letter from Elder Lance B. Wickman, General Counsel of the Church to publishers of major newspapers, TV stations and magazines. It was sent out on Tuesday, June 24, 2008.

Recent events have focused the media spotlight on a polygamous sect near San Angelo, Texas, calling itself the “Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.” As you probably know, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has absolutely no affiliation with this polygamous sect. Decades ago, the founders of that sect rejected the doctrines of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, were excommunicated, and then started their own religion. To the best of our knowledge, no one at the Texas compound has ever been a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Unfortunately, however, some of the media coverage of the recent events in Texas has caused members of the public to confuse the doctrines and members of that group and our church. We have received numerous inquiries from confused members of the public who, by listening to less than careful media reports, have come to a grave misunderstanding about our respective doctrines and faith. Based on these media reports many have erroneously concluded that there is some affiliation between the two – or even worse, that they are one and the same.

Over the years, in a careful effort to distinguish itself, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has gone to significant lengths to protect its rights in the name of the church and related matters. Specifically, we have obtained registrations for the name “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints,” “Mormon,” “Book of Mormon” and related trade and service marks from the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office and corresponding agencies in a significant number of foreign countries.

We are confident that you are committed to avoiding misleading statements that cause unwarranted confusion and that may disparage or infringe the intellectual property rights discussed above. Accordingly, we respectfully request the following:

As reflected in the AP Style Guide, we ask that you and your organization refrain from referring to members of that polygamous sect as “fundamentalist Mormons” or “fundamentalist” members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
We ask that, when reporting about this Texas-based polygamous sect or any other polygamous group, you avoid either explicitly or implicitly any inference that these groups are affiliated with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
On those occasions when it may be necessary in your reporting to refer to the historical practice of plural marriage in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, that you make very clear that the Church does not condone the practice of polygamy and that it has been forbidden in the Church for over one hundred years. Moreover, we absolutely condemn arranged or forced “marriages” of underage girls to anyone under any circumstances.

Stated simply, we would like to be known and recognized for whom we are and what we believe, and not be inaccurately associated with beliefs and practices that we condemn in the strongest terms. We would be grateful if you could circulate or copy this letter to your editorial staff and to your legal counsel.

We thank you for your consideration of these important matters.

Sincerely,

Lance B. Wickman

General Counsel

Why not simply identify as Christian?

Well; the folks above didn't want Anything to do with the word 'christian' until these later times.

Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).

Joseph Smith: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).

Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).

Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).

Orson Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses

, vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses , 18:172).

President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses , 10:127).

James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).

President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).

More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).

President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).

President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 2, p.196).

The man is NOT Catholic!

WHO created the TITLE of the thread??

One does NOT need to be a radical Muslim to cut someone's head off.

Matthew 7:21, feel free to have the last word.

... feel free to be gobsmacked into silence...

There are christians; and there are SUPER-Christians!

NO one ever notices when I misspell a word...

...when I am talking.

There goes that ‘last word’ thing...

I can explain it for you, I just can't understand it for you.

Mary is dead, and is in a grave somewhere.

Not just proudly, but PROUDLY!!!!!

I kinda figgered as much...

Proverbs 16:18

Pride goes before destruction,
a haughty spirit before a fall.