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Flame war and childishness |
Posted on 07/14/2014 9:20:18 AM PDT by NKP_Vet
To my Protestant brothers and sisters:
It's time to come back to Mother Church. We want you, we need you, we love you.
I've spent a lot of time in dialogue with activist atheists recently, and the direction we are going is not pretty. We are witnessing a rapid cultural decline into amorality.
Satan seeks the ruin of souls through the destruction of marriage and family, and the quickest route to his goal is the profanation of sex. The truth and meaning of human sexuality is our era's cultural fault line, and unfortunately, Protestant denominations have been tumbling into its widening crevace at an alarming pace.
The first cracks denying the sacred nature of human sexuality began mere decades ago with the first tentative acceptance of contraception by a Christian church (the Anglicans). After 1,900+ years of unbroken Christian teaching on the immorality of contraception (including 400+ years of unbroken Protestant teaching), a moral evil was suddenly declared good. The entirety of Protestantism, although horrified at first, soon followed suit.
"Woe to those who call evil good" -- Isaiah 5:20
Then came other issues -- sterilization, masturbation, abortion, fornication and cohabiting, homosexual activity and homosexual "marriage". One by one, Protestant communities have broken from Christian teaching and sided with the secular culture. Many Protestant communities do not accept all the aforementioned evils as good, of course, and some are making a valiant attempt to fight one or more of them. However, there is no guarantee that those denominations won't eventually accept other sexual sins in the same way they accepted contraception, sterilization and masturbation. A majority vote by church leaders could launch an unsuspecting Protestant from the Spirit of the Gospel right into the spirit of the age -- the Planned Parenthood age.
Look where you are standing. Unless you stand with the Catholic Church, you may already have one foot off the cliff.
How to guarantee that you'll stand firmly on the ground of moral Truth? Come back home to the Catholic Church.
For over two thousand years:
The Catholic Church has never taught that contraception is a moral good, and she never will. The Catholic Church has never taught that sterilization is a moral good, and she never will. The Catholic Church has never taught that masturbation is a moral good, and she never will. The Catholic Church has never taught that abortion is a moral good, and she never will. The Catholic Church has never taught that fornication is a moral good, and she never will. The Catholic Church has never taught that homosexual activity is a moral good, and she never will.
The moral teachings of the Church have never changed, and they never will.
Human sexuality is transcendent, life-giving and sacred, and the Catholic Church will teach that Truth till the last day.
Dear Protestant, a church with a changing morality is a church built on shifting sand. If you want to build your life and eternity on something solid, build it on the Rock of Peter. Don't be carried about by every wind of social change; come back to the Catholic Church and stand strong with us -- one united Body as Jesus intended.
America may not survive many more generations at the rate we are going, but the Church and her teachings will stand regardless, speaking the same Truths, undisturbed, till the end of time. Believe me, it's a really nice place to be in a storm. Extremely peaceful.
So, come on. You'll like it here, living in peace and joy and certainty. It's your rightful home anyway.
Come back to Holy Mother Church. It really is time.
“This is typical dodge the question when you can’t provide an answer based on using the Bible.”
I wasn’t asked a question. I, in fact, asked the question (”Notice that?”).
“You gonna start citing the Book of Mormon?? Maybe the Koran??”
Why? Are you claiming to be a Mormon or Muslim? Why don’t you just answer this simple question then: Where in the Bible does it say we should look only to the Bible for all truths?
“The poster is right...there is nothing in the Bible saying we are to pray to Mary of the saints. Nothing.”
Did anyone here claim there was something explicit in scripture on that? Again, where in the Bible does it say we should look only to the Bible for all truths? There’s nothing explicit on that topic either is there? Nope. Not a simple verse says it. Yet you believe in it - or at least you claim you do.
“Question is...are the quotes right?”
Actually that isn’t the question at all. How anti-Catholics interpret them is more apropos since that is problem.
“Again, all you can do is attack the messenger when the facts are against you.”
There are no facts against me here.
You make me laugh long time...
I’ m sure I do. I’m also sure that says more about you then it does about me or what I posted.
Well, you might want to compare notes with your brethren, because far from being false accusations by ignorant people, I have seen many Catholics defend uniquely Catholic teachings based solely on the authority of a pronouncement of a particular pope or the church in general, and in doing so have used Paul’s statement as their sole scriptural defense.
That’s your best refutation of the subject? Wow!
“But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.” Galatians 1:8-9
Please show us a universally accepted infallible source of what the apostles taught other than scripture.
Faith that is built upon Christ is NEVER on sinking sand, HE is the ROCK of our salvation. The "mother" church doesn't exist. The ONLY church is the called-out ones that belong to Christ from all nations, tongues and peoples, those who have been born again through faith in Jesus Christ and washed in His precious blood. This author mistakenly assumes the Roman Catholic church is the place where all Christians MUST be and she is dead wrong. We are found IN CHRIST not having our own righteousness but the righteousness of God which is through faith in Christ. When the church of Rome finally forsakes its false gospel of faith and works (doing everything the magesterium declares MUST be done in order to remain in a "state of grace"), then she will also become one with Christ's true assembly, His body. Until then, she is just another man-made organization steeped in "traditions" God never revealed or approved.
I'm fine where I am, worshiping with fellow believers in union with God's precepts and teachings and I need never fear I will be cast out or lost from His salvation. We need only look at the current crop of Roman Catholic liberal politicians to see that sola ecclesia (church alone) is no guarantee of unity in the truth. Catholics routinely vote in majorities FOR these people and in poll after poll show stark differences in what their church claims is what they believe and what the majority actually believes and follows in practice. Until there is a genuine HEART change, all the rules, words, dogmas, traditions and mandates are useless. When the Holy Spirit indwells the believer, that person will seek to do what is right in God's eyes instead of his own.
“Well, you might want to compare notes with your brethren, because far from being false accusations by ignorant people, I have seen many Catholics defend uniquely Catholic teachings based solely on the authority of a pronouncement of a particular pope or the church in general, and in doing so have used Paul’s statement as their sole scriptural defense.”
(sigh) Do all Protestants start out life as failures in logic from Government Schools? Let me explain:
1) you started off with this: “...I’m always curious about the above defense [2nd Thessalonians] used to argue against the principal of sola scriptura. I notice, for instance, that Paul didn’t continue his thought with “... and feel free to make up more going forward.””
And we went through that - and I accurately outline what your (false) premise was even though you had not told me what it was. I can do that because as a lot, as a group, those who oppose the Catholic faith are quite often predictable in what they will say and do. We went from that, to this:
2) “I’m suggesting that you open yourselves up to that accusation when you justify every tradition that’s come down over the last 2000 years by claiming that Paul proactively okayed it with his statement regarding traditions that had been established up to that point.”
And I pointed out it didn’t matter what we opened ourselves up to as long as we were right in what we did - and we are. And then we got this:
3) “Well, you might want to compare notes with your brethren, because far from being false accusations by ignorant people, I have seen many Catholics defend uniquely Catholic teachings based solely on the authority of a pronouncement of a particular pope or the church in general, and in doing so have used Paul’s statement as their sole scriptural defense.”
And I freely admit I have no idea of what you’re trying to say. Whether or not a Catholic uses 2nd Thessalonians to defend sacred tradition in general or a particular sacred tradition is essentially immaterial to anything I have discussed with you. 2nd Thessalonians does not prove or disprove any scared tradition other than the existence of sacred tradition itself. Your point is meaningless. It has nothing to do with what I posted. You’re saying I should “compare notes” with my fellow Catholics because - YOU CLAIM - they are doing something I never mentioned. I don’t get how that matters or makes sense.
Also, if a Catholic uses 2nd Thessalonians to prove that scared tradition exists in a discussion about “the authority of a pronouncement of a particular pope or the church in general” on a sacred tradition, how is that even problematic? 2nd Thessalonians makes plain that sacred tradition is a reality. And?
I showed how the popes statements directly contradicted scripture. You’re defense of Catholicism is really beginning to look pathetic.
“That’s your best refutation of the subject? Wow!”
That’s your best refutation of the fact that you couldn’t even spell his name? Wow!
Sounds like proselytizing.
Meaning, that we more easily find salvation by having recourse to the Mother than by going to the Son—not as if Mary was more powerful than her Son to save us, for we know that Jesus Christ is our only Savior, and that he alone by his merits has obtained and obtains salvation for us; but it is for this reason: that when we have recourse to Jesus, we consider him at the same time as our judge, to whom it belongs also to chastise ungrateful souls, and therefore the confidence necessary to be heard may fail us; but when we go to Mary, who has no other office than to compassionate us as Mother of mercy, and to defend us as our advocate, our confidence is more easily established, and is often greater.
Emphasis mine, just to make sure we're all on the same page here.
“If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.” Galatians 1:8-9”
That does not in any way answer this: “Where in the Bible does it say we should look only to the Bible for all truths?”
“Please show us a universally accepted infallible source of what the apostles taught other than scripture.”
Please show me where I ever claimed there was a “universally accepted infallible source of what the apostles taught other than scripture”. If you fail to post the exact post # where you’re suggesting I ever made such a claim, we will see you’re making up a straw man.
After your next post I will ask you a question (actually more one) that you will not be able to answer adequately. I am letting you know that it is coming - even though I won’t tell you the question yet - for a reason.
“I showed how the popes statements directly contradicted scripture.”
No, actually you did nothing of the kind. You never have. Posting your interpretations of scripture as juxtapositions of a prayer are not actual contradictions.
“You’re defense of Catholicism is really beginning to look pathetic.”
Not even remotely as pathetic as everything you do here every day.
Nope...a follower of Christ.
Why don’t you just answer this simple question then: Where in the Bible does it say we should look only to the Bible for all truths?
Until I know how you define truth, I can't answer your question.
>“The poster is right...there is nothing in the Bible saying we are to pray to Mary of the saints. Nothing.”<
Did anyone here claim there was something explicit in scripture on that?
Catholics have tried to make part of Christianity, but as you correctly point out, there is nothing in the Bible on this. So my question would be why do catholics pray to Mary when there isn't any Biblical support on this?
Again, where in the Bible does it say we should look only to the Bible for all truths? There’s nothing explicit on that topic either is there? Nope. Not a simple verse says it. Yet you believe in it - or at least you claim you do.
Jesus was quoted on numerous occasions when confronting the devil or the pharisees...."it is written." If Christ is setting the example of searching the Word for answers.... that's good enough for me.
I'll ask one more time....are the quotes right?
They either or or they are not. Which is it?
No, most of us start out life and only begin to attend school after we've learned to walk, talk, etc. Later, some of us actually do take college courses that teach us critical thinking, which includes avoiding argumentation based on things like non-sequiturs and ad hominem. Do all anti-Protestants start every debate by insulting the other person, by first challenging their grasp of logic and then answering it with a lot irrelevancies and, frankly, gibberish?
Here's a logical lesson for you, my friend. Declaring a premise to be false is not, in fact, a refutation of the premise.
Here's another one for you to chew on, and then I'm done. I've better things to do than keep knocking chips off your shoulder.
Are you a priest? Because if not, then you have no authority to debate me on the subject of sola scriptura using Thessalonians or any other scripture. Why? Because based on what I've observed in these threads, the reasoning (and I use the term loosely) of the anti-sola scriptura crowd is that to do so would be to utilize your own understanding of scripture, which is what you folks seem to find so offensive in Protestantism.
But hey, enjoy your feeling of superiority.
Read 2 Thessalonians and answer the following:
What tradition(s) is Paul teaching here?
It's interesting to note that the Catholics are always calling on people to *cross the Tiber*, to come back to the *mother church*, etc.
I've yet to see ONE non-Catholic call on Catholics to come to THEIR church.
Please, come here and become Lutherans. Come and be Presbyterians. Come be Baptists. Our denomination is the OTC.
No, the call is for people to come to JESUS, the One who is the Author and Perfecter of our faith.
It's telling what the emphasis is on from the different camps.
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