Posted on 07/03/2014 4:10:21 PM PDT by NKP_Vet
Vatican City (AsiaNews) - "We are not isolated and we are not Christians individually, each on his or her own". Instead, we are all part of the Church, "a large family, where one is welcomed," where "one learns to live as believers and disciples of the Lord Jesus," Pope Francis said.
Speaking in the last general audience before the July break, the Holy Father devoted his catechesis to the Church before a crowd of 35,000 in St Peter's Square. Despite a few drops of rain, he walked extensively among the assembled faithful.
In his address, he warned against those who "think they can have a personal, direct, immediate relationship with Jesus Christ outside of the communion and the mediation of the Church."
In the Church, he noted, there is no "do it yourself", no "free agents." For him, "Our Christian identity is belonging! We are Christians because we belong to the Church. It is like a surname. If the name is 'I am a Christian', the surname is 'I belong to the Church'." Such sense of belonging was born from the alliance between God and Abraham, to whom he donated a great people for his loyalty.
"God's relationship to his people comes before all of us, it comes from that time," and thus, "in this sense, our thoughts go first, with gratitude, to those who have gone before us and who welcomed us into the Church. No one becomes a Christian by himself! Is this clear? Nobody becomes a Christian by himself. Christians are not made in a lab.
(Excerpt) Read more at asianews.it ...
Make that pro-bible defenders of the Word.....bothe the Man and His Word.
“Make that pro-bible defenders of the Word.....bothe the Man and His Word.”
You’re not pro-Bible, nor are you a defender of the Word. You’re just a Protestant anti-Catholic.
Ok....I read this from Origen, a couple of times, and I'll be honest...I don't agree with it. He does a lot of comparing the OT with the NT which is ok. But, it seems he is falling back on the OT system of sacrifices and trying to equate those somehow with what the NT church is to do.
It's almost as if he neglected the one time sacrifice of Christ for all of our sins.
I noticed also that he is taking some verses out of context and building ideas around them. This is always very dangerous to do as it often leads to error.
I'm going to try and read the other postings as well.
“whatever, dude.”
Just remember, you were wrong about “graven images” (the Jews had them in the Temple); you were wrong about confession; you were wrong on tradition; you apparently can’t use a search engine; you’re wrong about Mary. You’re simply wrong.
ealgeone:
Well, I don’t like name calling and try to always post things with substance, even if a protestant FR poster here in the end does not agree. The name calling stuff ticks me off and there are some here who I just do not and will not post, even if they post me. Some here I am done with. You have been civil poster and acted with decorum, for the record.
Now, in my view, nothing in those passages speak to Once saved always saved. The entire NT corpus does not support it. Yes, those who are in Christ Jesus will be saved, but that does not prevent those from falling away. You keep saying does not line up with Paul, it is as if you are trying to fit a view of sin into a few verses. As for Christ saying my sheep and no one can take them away from him that is true, but that is from God’s perspective, to assume we are on auto-pilot to heaven is a sin of presumption and actually is an offense against the theological virtue of hope.
I can cite other statements from Christ himself that also have to be read and incorporated into the doctrine of sin, justification, salvation, etc. For example, in Mt 24:13 after talking about persecutions and false prophets, Christ states “But he who endures to the end will be saved”. This is the 2nd time Christ makes that statement in Saint Matthew’s Gospel for we read the same thing in Mt 10:22 “But he who endures to the end will be saved”
As for Christ statements, Christ, since he is Divine will always be true to himself and his promises to give his Grace to those who repent. That is true, but to Love God can’t be forced, as that is not True Love. Christ act of freely laying down his life on the Cross is the Truest act of Love. He gave himself freely. In numerous passages in the NT, Christ speaks about Love of God, Saint Paul says among the 3 great theological virtures of Faith, Hope and Love, Love is the greatest. Thus once we receive God’s Grace, we can turn away from it, God does not turn away from us, but individuals can turn away from God.
Even if you continue reading Saint Paul beyond vs. 3:28, you see for example in Chapter 6:15-18, what then, are we to sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means, Do you know that if you yield yourselves to any one as an obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death or of obedience, which leads to righteousness...you have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed.
In 1 Corinthians, Saint Paul reminds the Church at Corinth about Israel’s history and warns them “Therefore let any one who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall”, once he gives that warning to the Corinthians, those who take heed and worship God, pray, etc, will have the Grace given to them by Christ to overcome temptations. But again, it seems clear that Saint Paul is warning against presumption here.
To conclude, St. James is led to speak thus concerning works of mercy in this passage, in order that he may console those whom the statements immediately foregoing might have greatly alarmed, his purpose being to admonish us how those daily sins from which our life is never free here below may also be expiated by daily remedies; lest any man, becoming guilty of all when he offends in even one point, be brought, by offending in many points (since “in many things we all offend”), to appear before the bar of the Supreme Judge under the enormous amount of guilt which has accumulated by degrees, and find at that tribunal no mercy, because he showed no mercy to others, instead of rather meriting the forgiveness of his own sins, and the enjoyment of the gifts promised in Scripture, by his extending forgiveness and bounty to others.
It sounds like Augustine missed the point of Christ being a one time sacrifice for all of our sins. Colossians 2:13-14 "When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross."
Christ has removed the guilt and the stain of sin from our lives with His sacrifice on the cross.
again...whatever, dude.
ealgeone:
Ok, so you have problems with Origen. He is one of the earliest fathers to propose the multiple sense of Scriptures [The Literal and the Allegorical] and is really the first to do in-depth Scripture commentaries, and do serious theological study of the sacred text etc. While some of his theology seen in the context of later Dogmatic statements on the Trinity do not meet precise Trinitarian orthodoxy, he was a theologian and remained in communion with the Church and was faithful, it is just his attempts to give us a precise understanding of the Trinity were not what the Church went with, but he strove to be loyal to the Catholic faith and questions of his orthodoxy never arose while he was alive, only after his death. He is still a great scholar and theologian while some of his views are seen as heretical in hindsight, I do not see him as heretic as I see Tertullian, for example, who broke with the Catholic Church and joined the Montanist sect, which was indeed heretical.
Now, Saint Jerome, Saint Augustine and Saint Basil the Great all understand sin and have a doctrine of sin 100% consistent with Origen’s doctrine of sin. The orthodoxy of Jerome, Augustine and Basil the Great is not in question. If Origen were the only theologian positing the doctrine of sin distinguishing mortal vs. venial, it would raise some questions as to the orthodoxy of it, but it is so clearly taught by the early Church that to take a view opposite of the one that the Catholic Church holds is the anomaly or novel doctrine that is departing from the consensus of Apostolic Tradition.
How do you square away Ephesians 1:13-14 13 "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory."
The word seal in the greek indicates ownership and the full security by the backing of the owner. sealing in the ancient world served as a legal signature which guaranteed the promise of what was sealed. Helps Word Studies.
the greek word for pledge indicates earnest-money, a deposit which guarantees the balance. it represents the full security backed by the purchaser who supplies proof they will fulfill the entire pledge. Helps Word Studies.
From this verse it sure sounds like once a person has placed their faith in Christ, the Holy Spirit is then given as a pledge of the promise of eternal life. Going back to John with the sheep not being lost....it sure sounds like Jesus is saying once we place our faith in Him, we're saved for an eternity.
Reading Ephesians 2:8-9 gives the same indication of security in that God is giving us the gift of faith.
ealgeone:
Just a question, is it possible, maybe slightly possible, that perhaps some of the views that you hold are not the orthodox position. I believe you hold them in all sincerity but the men you say got it wrong are the same great theologians that helped the Church, by God’s Grace, to understand more fully the Mystery of the Holy Trinity, the Person of Christ, and defend these doctrines against all the heretical movements in the early Church, the Gnostics, Montanist, Modalist, Arians, Nestorians, Monophysites, Pelagians, Donatist, Manicheans, etc, etc. It is also thru these men and the Councils of the 4th century Church that the canon of the NT that we now hold to be the 27 book NT came to be.
As for Christ once sacrifice, the doctrine of mortal and venial sin does not negate it or contradict it. Christ dying on the Cross is the means thru which all and every sin committed for the entire human history will be forgiven.
I didn't catch this the first go round, but this may be part of the problem...if he is using allegory to interpret the Bible then he is on shaky grounds to begin with. It is my understanding that with allegory you can read something into the text that isn't there as opposed to exegesis.
I've always been taught that the proper way to understand the Bible is to read the verse in context. If there is a word that is giving you trouble, then you do a word study to see how else the word is used in the Bible.
But context always remains the key.
If this be the case why the big issue of the differing types of sins if all sins are forgiven through Him?
ealgeone:
Placing your faith in him and staying in communion with him. So yes, if one stays in communion with God and never departs from him, he will be saved.
As for Seal, you are correct in the meaning. It is part of the Confirmation Liturgy in the Catholic Tradition where the Bishop lays hands on the head of the person and says “Be Sealed with the Holy Spirit” The Church Fathers used this term to describe the indelible mark put on the person in Baptism. As for the guarantee, you are correct that it draws on the image of pledge or down payment [Gensis 38-17-18]. In the Catholic Tradition and theology, this points to Baptism which is the first installment [to use a similar term and language consistent with pledge or down payment] of the Fullness of God’s life and blessing we hope to possess in heaven. Seal is used again by Paul in 2 Corinthians 1:22. So being incorporated into God’s family via Baptism, we have the first fruits of the Spirit [Romans 8:23]. So receiving the Holy Spirit is the first installment or payment but the full inheritance it not till we are in heaven, and it is still possible for individuals to fall away. Again, presuming God must save me is against the virtue of Hope, as is outright despair, for the record.
Not sure what you're asking here.
I am a sinner based on God's word.
I believe Christ died on the cross for my sins....past, present and future.
I know there is nothing I can do to earn my salvation...or lose it...it is all through Christ.
Based on His assurances, I know that when I die I will be with Him in Heaven for eternity.
Now this gets tricky...how does one know when you have departed from Him. What defines this? How far do you have to depart? How do you know you've got it back?
The cross takes care of all of this. I know my sheep...
ealgeone:
The difference is that mortal sins are so evil, that once one allows himself to be tempted to commit them, and not respond to conscience given to them by the Holy Spirit to repent, one severs communion with God. In other words, in Catholic Theology, the hey have rejected God’s Grace and totally turned away from it. Now, Christ will forgive mortal sins, yes, but the danger for individuals is once you go down that path, you are heading the wrong way.
Venial sins are just the daily faults that all of us have, we may get upset with someone, but we don’t let that get so into our hearts that we go commit violent acts towards the individual.
I believe in this context he is referring to the entire Christian population.
I agree with you, but why does someone always have to translate what he says?
Alex: Made him commissioner of indulgences for all Germany.
Historian: Who was Pope Leo X
Alex: Correct, your sins are cleansed
Not sure if you knew that you were talking Catholic history.
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