Time for new reformation re: understanding of Biblical priesthood, sainthood, & ordination [Vanity]

Colofornian | June 26, 2014 | Colofornian

[Colofornian]

Mass confusion is still extant pertaining to three key Christian words -- each related to "ministry" and those who serve God:
"priesthood"
"saints"
"ordination"

Each of these words have, unfortunately, been largely skewed by the historical Church: The first two by Roman Catholicism; the latter by Protestantism.

'Holy Priesthood...Royal Priesthood'

No New Testament-based Church can neglect 1 Peter 2:4-9 and Revelation 1:5-6 plus Revelation 5:10 in its definition of "priesthood."

In 1 Peter 2, the "holy priesthood" (verse 5) and the "royal priesthood" (verse 9) are described as a privilege presented to those who...
...come to Christ (verse 4);
...are chosen by God (verse 4);
...are precious to God (verse 4);
...make up God's "spiritual household" (verse 5);
...are God's "people" (verse 9);
...are a "holy nation" (verse 9);
...are God's "special possession" (verse 9);
..."declare the praises of" God (verse 9)

Here are the specific verses cited in context:

4 As YOU come to him, the living Stone—rejected by humans but chosen by God and precious to him— 5 YOU also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 For in Scripture it says:
“See, I lay a stone in Zion,
a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him
will never be put to shame.”
7 Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, “The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,”
8 and, “A stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall.”[d] They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for.
9 But YOU are a chosen PEOPLE, a ROYAL PRIESTHOOD, a HOLY NATION, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 Once you were not a PEOPLE, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

The obvious questions then arise when reading these passages: Do only males...
...come to Christ?
...become objects of His chosen ones?
...become valued as "precious" by God?
...become His "special possession"?
...declare God's praises?

And exactly what kind of a "spiritual household" would such a "household" be if it excluded females?

Is Peter's reference to God's people in verse 9 gender-restricted? What kind of a "people" would that be?

What is a "holy nation" that is gender-homogenous?

Or what is a "kingdom" that constitutes males only? (see Revelation 1:5-6 and Revelation 5:10 for context)

Is 'Ministry' -- a word that simply means 'Service' -- best reflected within a hierarchical structure? Or, rather, as Christ Himself served, being a bond-servant of Him?

In the New American Standard Bible, which strives more toward a fairly literal translation...
...Peter referenced Himself as a "bond-servant" of Jesus Christ (2 Peter 1:1).
So did James (James 1:1).
So did Jude (Jude 1).
So did Paul (Titus 1:1; 2 Cor. 4:5, etc.), who also included Timothy in that description (Phil. 1:1).
Paul also labeled Epaphras (Col. 1:7) and Tychicus (Col. 4:7) as such.
And the apostle John uses the phrase nine times in the book of Revelation (1:1; 2:20; 7:3; 11:18; 15:3; 19:2,5; 22:3,6).
Finally, Paul even describes Jesus Himself as a "bondservant" (Phil. 2:7)!

What is a "bond-servant?" Well, the New American Standard version also highlighted its more literal usage: A bond-servant of Jesus Christ is simply a bondslave of Jesus Christ (see Col. 4:12 re Epaphras reference; Titus 2:9; 1 Peter 2:16)

At the time the apostle Paul wrote his letter to those in Christ at Rome, about one-third of the Roman world was slaves...bond-servants.

And it's no coincidence that Peter references "bondservant" just seven verses (1 Pet. 2:16) after his "royal priesthood" reference (v. 9): Act as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of God."

You see, the common notion of "priesthood" has been historically skewed by layers of ecclesiastical bureaucracy. The "priesthood" isn't "one-upsmanship" in terms of service. The very words "ministry" and "service" is what is provided by the Bondslaves operating from a spiritual posture on their knees; not ecclesiastical "magistrates" administratively "lording" it over others.

This is why both the feminist rebellion verses a Biblical understanding of spiritual submission within the Church at-large
-- along with the historical notions to place both "priesthood" and "ministry" as "higher levels"
... via the decidely unbiblical notion of "ordination" --
...have both run off-base courses.
NOTE: "Clergy"-"Laity" distinctions in the ways they've come to be interpreted within Protestantism and other church traditions are extrabiblical traditions; "ordination" is merely a biblical word tied to the decrees of God but has no verse-by-verse Biblical underpinnings re: "THE ministry."

Being a bond-servant -- a bondslave -- is submission; is servanthood.

Sainthood

Likewise, the vocabulary of "Sainthood" also suffered within history and unto modern times in much the same way as "priesthood" and "the ministry"...reducing these levels to the "very few" and "spiritually elite." (NOTE: Satan has always desired to reduce his battle to a mere few)

"Saints" simply literally means "holy ones" -- those set apart to serve our Lord. In other words, ALL of us who are in Christ. We are ALL set apart for holy service, bearing the Holy Spirit within each of us.

When the apostle Paul referenced the church in greetings and other references, he highlighted ALL of them as "saints":
"but now, I am going to Jerusalem serving the saints." (Romans 15:25)
"For Macedonia and Achaia have been pleased to make a contribution for the poor among the saints in Jerusalem." (Romans 15:26)
"Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 1:1)
"To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ who are at Colossae: Grace to you and peace from God our Father." (Col. 1:2)
"But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints;" (Eph. 5:3)

'Ordained' or 'Ordination' for Ministry

In the New Testament, you'll find the Greek word for "ordained" twice...and both are applied to the Law of God...not to special leadership capacities. "Ordination" as a word isn't otherwise in the New Testament.

Landing Point: The Reformation and 'Priesthood of All Believers'

Allow me to quote from Wikipedia: Universal Priesthood (doctrine):

"While Martin Luther did not use the exact phrase 'priesthood of all believers", he adduces a general priesthood in Christendom in his 1520 To the Christian Nobility of the German Nation in order to dismiss the medieval view that Christians in the present life were to be divided into two classes: 'spiritual' and 'secular'. He put forward the doctrine that all baptized Christians are 'priests' and 'spiritual' in the sight of God:

"That the pope or bishop anoints, makes tonsures, ordains, consecrates, or dresses differently from the laity, may make a hypocrite or an idolatrous oil-painted icon, but it in no way makes a Christian or spiritual human being. In fact, we are all consecrated priests through Baptism, as St. Peter in 1 Peter 2[:9] says, "You are a royal priesthood and a priestly kingdom," and Revelation [5:10], "Through your blood you have made us into priests and kings.'"

Two months later Luther would write in his On the Babylonian Captivity of the Church (1520):

How then if they are forced to admit that we are all equally priests, as many of us as are baptized, and by this way we truly are; while to them is committed only the Ministry (ministerium Predigtamt) and consented to by us (nostro consensu)? If they recognize this they would know that they have no right to exercise power over us (ius imperii, in what has not been committed to them) except insofar as we may have granted it to them, for thus it says in 1 Peter 2, "You are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a priestly kingdom.' In this way we are all priests, as many of us as are Christians. There are indeed priests whom we call ministers. They are chosen from among us, and who do everything in our name. That is a priesthood which is nothing else than the Ministry. Thus 1 Corinthians 4:1: 'No one should regard us as anything else than ministers of Christ and dispensers of the mysteries of God.'"

Other Notable Biblical Considerations

1 The apostle Paul listed spiritual gifts in 1 Corinthians 12-14, Romans 12, and Ephesians 4. They are not gender-specific. Thus, ministry is carried on by the Holy Spirit operating thru both men and women operating as the Laos (Greek for laity) -- the "people" of God.

2 In the New Testament, we find female prophetesses in Luke 2:36 (Anna) & Acts 21:8-9 (evangelist Philip's four daughters). In some current religious cultures -- like the Mormon Church -- Philip and his four daughters might frankly be ex-communicated in a such a sub-culture! Faith investigators may want to be careful in "faulting" the Holy Spirit for giving this gift to females in those circumstances, or other spiritual gifts that the apostle Paul highlighted in numerous New Testament passages.

3 Israel was quite comfortable with Deborah serving as a Judge-leader; and an entire Old Testament book (and ensuing Purim recognition amongst Jewish believers) is devoted to Esther serving as an intercessor where no man had the inroad (or seeming courage) to proceed?

[delchiante]

I only write one check a month and I render to Caesar what belongs to Caesar (or to what belongs to the pope’s world) ... but if I could get away with not putting the secular humanist date on it, and be assured by a secular humanist bank that it would not invalidate the instrument, I would certainly do that. And I have been told the date is needed because after a certain amount of time, the instrument is invalid...

But it is easier to write that check than it is to find a business open on the pope’s holy day of december 25.. that is certainly a tough day to buy or sell.

Romans 12:2
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

[editor-surveyor]

Tradition has been in place of the Word of God since the mid 4th century.

Sunday worship replaced Godly worship officially at the Council of Lao DiCea in 364 AD.

Give ‘em Hades!
.

[verga]

If that helps you sleep through the night then all is good.

[delchiante]

Isaiah 66
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith Yah ,so shall your seed and your name remain.

23And it shall come to pass, that from one NEW MOON to another, and from one SABBATh to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith Yah.

24And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh

New moons and Sabbaths and feasts are not spiritual abstracts... They are His set times and appointed times given to Israel to separate them from the rest of the world and to point to their King and Coming Kingdom.... and fulfilled by the Messiah of Israel in perfect fashion...

I don’t consider that abstract... especially when we read the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,, but Torah is replaced by Tammuz...

Feel free to work and worship according to the pope’s timekeeping, using his premises for times and laws.. that certainly is one yoke that is a choice..

The world’s system allows all religions their days and sabbaths and even secular humanists and atheists can have their own holy days...
A calendar that unites the world...
Daniel 7:25 talks about it happening and the first reformers saw it too...

Thankfully, I am journeying out of this world and drawing closer to Him by His amazing Grace... and the world and its systems are not my friend like they used to be..
But scripture warns us about playing footsy with the world..

James 4:4 “Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.” 

May He bless your journey out as much as He has mine...

[delchiante]

The first day of his work week is on the 2nd, 9th, 16th, 23rd days of His month...

That is why He rose on the 16th day of the first month,the first day of the week...
The day after His Sabbath (a high sabbath that month) known as First fruits...

If anybody can tell me how the battle ofJericho never violated Hia Sabbath using the pope’s calendar, I would be interested..

But an explanation isn’t need according to Scripture timekeeping and His Calendar
(Along with a book referenced in His scripture, the book of jasher)

the battle of Jericho would not have hit a Sabbath day even though it was a seven day battle/march..that is impossible with the world’s timekeeping....

And considering they just spent 40 years learning His calendar in the wilderness, we can then just assume He gave Israel a mulligan on the Sabbath commandment and allow them to violate it first thing?

His calendar confirms that no Sabbath was any part of the march... (Because it started on the new moon per the book of jasher and with Ezekiel 46:1 as the template, there are eight days before His weekly Sabbath at the beginning of His months)

But Gregorian folks would have to twist into a pretzel or say a ‘parade’ march wasn’t a violation of sabbath... kind of like the excuses for postponement or suspension rules for His feasts when Israel has their pope sabbath conflict with His appointed times...
They too have abandoned His timekeeping..

And I can’t believe how much I know now about why Israel was commanded to do certain things on certain days-like circumcision, dedication, etc

You and I have no real interest in that because our timekeeping doesn’t point to the Messiah of Israel and His only begotten Son... It points to the SUN...
His timekeeping points to Him to declare His glory

Psalm 19:1-3
The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.

3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.

[delchiante]

Not being under satan’s yoke, the god of this counterfeit world and its counterfeit systems, is a true blessing...

But many would find His calendar too difficult to keep a job/career or go to a regular school because it would conflict..

Folks with flexible work schedules, retired , self employed, unemployed, homeless and homeschoolers have an opportunity as they are not as bound to the system...

But folks with mon-fri jobs or those with no flexibility in their work schedules, or those who work in corporate big business world or government or students who attend public, private and parochial schools- just off the top of my head- there is no way His calendar would work... without big sacrifices to what they may deem important..

The more one is bound to the world, the less they are able to observe a his timekeeping... that is not by accident...

[verga]

What faith/ denomination/ religion, do you call yours?

[delchiante]

I believe in the Elohim of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and the finished work of the Messiah of Israel, Joshua, His only begotten Son, The Word that became flesh and dwelt among us.

My Faith is in Him

I am a member of His Body..an adopted son of the Most High. Joint heir to His Promises with real freedom and liberty that only our Messiah gives.

So, not sure there is a name that describes it or can fit in a denominational or religious box- I am fine with that...

And amazing thing- He drew me away from ‘church’ while drawing me out of the world...
closer to Him and that was all before He taught me His timekeeping and calendar..
Truly has set me free..

And who the Son sets free, is free indeed..

And the freedom and liberty He gives is not of the counterfeit kind that this country and this world promotes..

A free man.. maybe that is the best way to ‘name’ it... but the definition of free depends on who you ask...

[verga]

When you walk into your place of worship what is the name on the wall?

[delchiante]

My place of worship isn’t a building...

It is my body which is a temple for His Holy Spirit.. I don’t own the ‘building’ nor claim tax exempt status from governments.. I also have no need to worry about court cases and their outcomes or what leaders do or say.. My temple goes where I go..
And My High Priest is never failing..

Man’s rule do not dictate how, when, where, I shall worship in the temple given to me by my Heavenly Father..

And with study of His Word and His Spirit as my teacher, I can see so much of what is worship practices in christendom today, as counterfeit and strange and foreign to what is Truth.

And as Proverbs says, why should you, my son, be ravished with a strange woman, and embrace the breast of a foreigner?

My faith isnt in any church or denomination.... I see Tammuz and little Torah... I see greco roman latin words, themes and deeds but we know the concepts and spirit should all be Hebraic..

So, no church or denomination can claim me as theirs..
I have one redeemer that claims me..and He sets me free..

And I worship Him in Spirit and Truth.. genuine Truth as best I can. Not in counterfeits that look like or feel like truth, just because millions or billions follow it...(and let me say I am not smart enough to know or come up with what He has shown me)

And it is only by His Grace and Mercy I am seeing this.. This isn’t an earthly eye thing.. My eyes were blinded to all this before like everybody else...

Either I am being duped into believing what I have been taught or, on the other hand, the world is completely right and satan is not the god of this world and is not pulling the strings these days...

A belief that lies are not going to be subtle and deceitful but big whoppers so we don’t get tripped up.. I can’t accept the other hand...

Scripture says the whole world is being deceived- I have been shown a way that it occurs today, not just a past or future time in ‘revelation’- a present time, even for the very elect.. and it gets to heart of worship....

The war for worship is one that predates you and I... and the enemies are not catholics, protestants, atheists, muslims, jews, secular humanists- but the father of all lies..the one who would and will use each of those groups for his desired results...

Lies will never point to the Way, Truth or the Life..
Neither will half truths...

I don’t want to worship in Spirit and Half truths...

I think christendom accepts half truths or outright lies inherited to us over time, and calls them truth- and has built foundations of worship on them-and frankly the whole world accepts.

Time is short... and Truth is truth. Man made truths can be tested against Scripture... and should be...

The gregorian, december 25 and easter are just not truth.. His Word tells us so..
And no church/temple I know works without one or all three of those worship premises..
If they changed, maybe it would be safe to go back...but until then,

The temple I worship Him in has no such barriers or accepts those premises or inherited ‘givens’...

and everyone can use their very own temple for the same purpose we are created to do:

To have intimate and personal fellowship with our Heavenly Father and The only Way to Him- Our Messiah and Savior..

HalleluYah

[verga]

Got it made up man made religion. That was all you really had to say.

[delchiante]

Christendom is sadly a part of babylon...
But believers can come out of her..

May He bless your journey out more than He has mine...

[Colofornian]

Tradition has been in place of the Word of God since the mid 4th century. Sunday worship replaced Godly worship officially at the Council of Lao DiCea in 364 AD.

Sorry, but "tradition" is best exemplified by either God the Father, God the Son, or the Holy Spirit having set a precedent...or God speaking thru a prophet or via His Son.

And that "precedent" for honoring Sunday didn't first take place; not at all...it occurred on Resurrection Sunday.

[af_vet_1981]

The bible PLAINILY says it's PAUL that won't allow women to teach: NOT Christ!! But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

This is what I meant by quoting Paul and writing "Paul testified he is your teacher and apostle. You already wrote you will neither believe nor obey him if it is inconvenient."

I invited Springfield Reformer here to see how far the faith which was once delivered to the saints has be re-formed, or if he holds that Paul's teaching is binding on Christians.

Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity. I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting. In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

[BlueDragon]

Silent Nuns.

What a concept!

All Quiet on the Western Buses?

No?

[editor-surveyor]

Resurrection Sunday never happened, that is a creation of pagan men.

Yeshua was resurrected as the sun set on the end of the third day. That is what the gospels say if you read them without the catholic bias.

The end of the 3rd day was fully 12 hours before the sun rose on the pagan sunday.

You can fashion your life around catholic nonsense if it pleases you, but the word of God says that it doesn’t please him.
.

[BlueDragon]

There is not enough to go on, for you to be putting the words into his (Elsie's) mouth which you did.

He said no such things as you accuse him of having said.

Face it -- those are not his words, but instead is your own interpretation of what yourself and others may have thought he intended to be implied (which I do think is quite possibly mistaken assumption).

His intending meaning in #16, has yet to be established.

In addition to that, there is evidence of you having gone from one incident of mind-reading, to yet another, to reach the place where you put words in his mouth.

And what is this all about, anyway?

Is it about trying to now save face for elsewhere having mistaken Elsie for being "Mormon"?

Yes, I saw the other thread, and backtracked that mess. I need no further explanations for it.

But what better way to distract anyone (including yourself?) from having made ill-founded assumption in regards to Elsie, than to now shove upon him whatever it is which can be found to divert attention from your own previous mistaken assumptions?

These yet more assumptions which you seem to have gone to a bit of effort to manufacture --- still don't work. It's too late.

If there be no corrections forthcoming from Elsie ---- lack of anything satisfactory to yourself or any other interested party, still does not give you or anyone leave to put words which they did not say in someone's mouth.

You made accusations. Those fail. He said no such thing as you claimed.

Speaking of

faith which was once delivered to the saints having been re-formed,

one can find much of that within the Roman Catholic church, so much so that the words of salvation themselves suffer suffocation. Along with that sort of 'wolfishness' there has been much added -- some of it required to be believed, oodles & gobs more impliedshould be believed, with these errors & additions so densely wound up and bound up within Catholicism I am surprised many ever find Him within that context much at all.

One may be able to say similar for other (other-than-'Catholic') Christians venue or setting likewise. But it is God Himself who does the real and actual 'converting' isn't it? I mean...when such a thing (or event) actually proceeds & progresses.

I am fairly certain those whom do encounter Him -- put aside much of what they hear of or were taught, focusing directly upon Christ and His own sacrifice -- for us.

Christianity vs. Churchianity A.A.Phelps.

I do not know if that is the same A.A. Phelps who was the famed abolitionists reverend in Boston in the 1840's or not, but it could be so...

This next one, even as Spurgeon is serious, at the same time can be rather tongue-in-cheek hilarious

http://www.spurgeon.org/s_and_t/c_v_c.htm

Selected from several paragraphs down from the beginning;

In the Bucks Herald a serious complaint is laid against the zealous Vicar of Winslow, by a Churchman, which we shall use as an illustration of the quarrel between Christianity and Churchianity. The allegations appear to us to be very justly brought by the writer from his Churchianity point of view; the vicar is a Christian, and has no right in the Anglican church, and when his vestry condemns him, it is simply the voice of the church with which he has unhappily allied himself protesting against the religion of Jesus, which shines in his course of action. If an honest Englishman enlists in the French army in time of war, he must not wonder if his British manners are offensive to his Gallic connections; he should not put himself in so false a position, but range himself on the side to which, by lineage and loyalty, he belongs.

It is curious to note that the great sins which the Vicar of Winslow has committed against Churchianity, are precisely the very acts which, under Christianity, are accounted as virtues. His good before the Lord of hosts is evil in the judgment of perverse men. "In Winslow," says the Churchman, "there is a most decided church feeling. Many of us, with the greatest regret, leave our parish church, who have never done so before; others, who from circumstances are unable to do so, feel the want of good services, but submit to what they get. Our vicar, I believe, thinks himself sincere and right; but he forgets that other persons may (as in this instance they do) hold contrary views to his, to which views he will not yield in the slightest degree, although it would be for the benefit of the church of which he is a priest, and of which we are the true and loving people." Of course he is a priest, and his own prayer book calls him so, and yet we venture to guess that he disowns the title. His parishioners are right enough in murmuring at his want of churchmanship, but he is more right still, though very inconsistent, in putting Christ before the church.

Now for the gross transgressions of the vicar, which are chiefly threefold. Item the first. He has been guilty of Christian love. He has committed against Churchianity the high crime and misdemeanor of loving his brethren in the faith, whereas he ought to have denounced them all as schismatics and heretics. The charge needs no comment from us, all sound judges will see that the case is parallel to that against Paul and Silas, at Philippi, "these men, being Christians, do exceedingly trouble our city, and teach customs which it is not lawful for us to receive, being Churchmen." Here are the very words of the accusation—"the holding of prayer meetings, at which all denominations of Christians were invited to attend, and to offer up prayer in alphabetical order, regardless of sect, and under the presidency of the vicar." Horrible! is it not, O bitter bigot? Lovely! is it not, disciple of Jesus? Item second. He has vindicated, as well as he could, a weak point in his teaching, and has been anxious to win over those who differ. He is accused of preaching "special sermons upon such subjects as Holy Baptism, and inviting the Baptists to attend, when that denomination of Christians had just established a new place of worship." Churchianity does not think those vile Baptists to be worth powder and shot. To preach to them is as bad as Paul preaching among the uncircumcised Gentiles. It is useless to try to convert them, and it is dangerous to ventilate the subject of Baptism, because the church is so very fond of Infant Baptism, and the matter is so exceedingly doubtful, that it is better not to stir in it. The Baptists, mark you, reader, do not complain; they are glad that every Paedobaptist should declare his own views, and they feel so safe in their own entrenchments that they look for converts whenever the subject is brought before the public mind; but the churchman complains grievously because Baptists are even bidden to come and be rectified by the vicar; let them alone, they are heretics and arch enemies of Churchianity; let them go to their own place, both here and hereafter.

[af_vet_1981]

There is not enough to go on, for you to be putting the words into his (Elsie's) mouth which you did. He said no such things as you accuse him of having said.

Do you accept the apostolic authority of Paul when he wrote this, or do you also support the ordination of women in the ministry ?

Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity. I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting. In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

[af_vet_1981]

And what is this all about, anyway?

It is about the ordination of women, divorce, abortion, and contraception in the Wesleyan Church. I suppose you get paid by how many words you write too ... :)

[af_vet_1981]

Have you ever heard the voice of God? I do not mean the leading or prompting of the Spirit -- which I do think He much prefers we move with Him by that influence -- but the Voice heard clearly even word-for-word?

Are you claiming to have heard the audible voice of God ?