Posted on 06/21/2014 1:28:22 AM PDT by Al Hitan
Let me begin this conclusion by ending at the beginning: My wife Cindy and I entered into full communion with the Catholic Church because we came to see that this Church is the Church established by Jesus Christ. We came to this realization in large measure by spending time in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, reading other positive presentations of Catholic teaching, and speaking with flesh and blood Catholics in all walks of life and vocations. The many misconceptions we had about what Catholics believed were cleared away as we dug deeply into the teaching resources of the Catholic Church and talked with actual Catholics. We began to recognize that all the Church taught and claimed was verified and confirmed in the Bible, by history, and in the lives of the saints. Over time we came to understand that the Catholic Church represents the fullness of what Christ wanted to reveal to his people; that it possesses all the gifts that our Lord wanted us to have; and that the Church in its liturgy, its apostolic teaching, the Eucharist, the sacraments, and its saints, serves as the definitive place where God’s grace is on full offer. The reason being — it is the Church of Jesus Christ most fully and rightly ordered through time. Yes, unquestionably a profound claim. But it is the one made by the Catholic Church in all ages, and it is the claim we have come to accept.
This is your invitation to test and see. I assure you that there is no lack of evidences for her divine origin. Such are openly verifiable and abundant. One need only the willingness to discern them. Whatever my personal story may be, the proof of the Catholic Church’s divine origin resides in the realm of history. The evidences are public, out there for you to examine. You are not at the mercy of my personal judgments concerning this claim about the Catholic Church. Instead you are free to investigate the facts of the Church’s perduring existence, her miraculous life, her divine teachings, the abiding fruit of her mission in the world from the time of Christ even down to our present day. The clues are all there; they await you. You need only begin to pursue them.
Our decision to leave Presbyterianism for the Catholic Church surprised many.
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I’ll bet their decision no longer surprises so many after what the Presbyterian church just decided about homosexual “marriage.”
Have you ever read the Catechism?
Most protestant daughters are built on that same foundation with those same observances and worship premises they get from mother...
Sunday- Day of worship for the Sun, Monday- the moon, Tuesday- after the Norse one handed god Twi, Wednesday- Claque of the Latin for Mercury, Thursday-literally Thor's day, Friday- Named after the old English goddess Frigg, Saturday- after the Roman god Saturn.
January- Roman god Janus, April- Roman goddess, Aphrilis- Greek goddess Aphrodite, June- Roman goddess Juno, July Julius Ceaser, August- his nephew Augustus, etc....
Which calendar do you use and how does it look.
IIRC the Bible is referenced on almost every page of the CC, I think there were 12-15 that it wasn't quoted directly from.
You are saying that Calvinism wouldn’t have any problem with this, from his letter to Valentinus?
“1. Two young men, Cresconius and Felix, have found their way to us, and, introducing themselves as belonging to your brotherhood, have told us that your monastery was disturbed with no small commotion, because certain among you preach grace in such a manner as to deny that the will of man is free; and maintain—a more serious matter—that in the day of judgment God will not render to every man according to his works. At the same time, they have pointed out to us, that many of you do not entertain this opinion, but allow that free will is assisted by the grace of God, so as that we may think and do aright; so that, when the Lord shall come to render unto every man according to his works, He shall find those works of ours good which God has prepared in order that we may walk in them. They who think this think rightly. “
But more broadly, Augustine was a bishop. He founded a religious order. He followed the Christian calendar and the commemoration of the martyrs. This sounds like a Puritan to you?
When you are baptized, you are baptized into the Body of Christ, the Church.
It is important to worship with others members of the church - not as an isolated member cut off from the rest of the body.
And it is scriptural:
Hebrews 10:25
Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.
Just like our bodies need food to function, grow, etc. our souls need food also - spiritual food. For Catholics the Mass and especially the Eucharist provide this spiritual nourishment that we need. You can worship God anywhere and he wants us to. Our lives should be a prayer to God - everything we do should be done to glorify God, but once again going to church gives us the nourishment and the direction we need to accomplish this. As a kid I didn’t understand this and did not appreciate going to church. As I have grown spiritually I cannot imagine not going to church - it is a part of me.
It was of this epistle that I was talking about in the first place in the different uses of the term "Free will." Here is another quote from the letter, note the bold:
"As for all others who, in the use of their free will, have added to original sin, sins of their own commission, but who have not been delivered by God's grace from the power of darkness and removed into the kingdom of Christ, they will receive judgment according to the deserts not of their original sin only, but also of the acts of their own will. The good, indeed, shall receive their reward according to the merits of their own good-will, but then they received this very good-will through the grace of God; and thus is accomplished that sentence of Scripture, "Indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that does evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile: but glory, honour, and peace to every man that works good; to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile."'(Augustine, Letter 215)
But more broadly, Augustine was a bishop. He founded a religious order. He followed the Christian calendar and the commemoration of the martyrs. This sounds like a Puritan to you?
This is a silly statement since, as another poster noted, the OPC, and the Reformed in general, follow the Christian calender, worship on Sundays, and believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist exactly in the way Augustine did, which is very anti-Catholic. A Church might have all these things, but if it does not have sound doctrine, all it has is empty practice, all form of God but no power.
“I’ll bet their decision no longer surprises so many after what the Presbyterian church just decided about homosexual ‘marriage.’”
Please do not lump all “Presbyterians” together. The OPC has had nothing to do with the PCUSA ever, as far as I know. The same goes for the PCA. Decades ago many, many local Presbyterian churches saw what was happening in the PCUSA and split with them. The PCA was one result. As far as I know, neither the OPC nor the PCA have come anywhere near the issue of homosexual “marriage.”
The other poster is correct. The PCUSA are mostly a pack of universalists. They do not accept historical Reformed teachings. They are just a little bit more liberal than your Pope.
Well heavens, EVERYONE believes it all comes from grace, except Pelagians. As long as the free will is not denied.
As for the rest, there are no bishops in the OPC. No cult of the martyrs in the OPC. No monks in the OPC that I’m aware of. If Augustine had such a Reformed theology, I wonder why he retained all of this.
And as far as Augustine’s Reformed understanding of the Real Presence, please expound on that notion...this I want to hear!
Which agrees precisely with Catholic teaching, as expressed infallibly a few years later at 2nd Orange. In fact, most of the citations you've posted are perfectly aligned with Catholic teaching. I'm looking for one where Augustine says that the unjustified man is free only to sin; you might have a case there for a disagreement. (We don't think Augustine is infallible any more than you do.).
In re Communion, at one point Augustine said that it was a sin not to adore the consecrated Host. Sounds like idolatry in the Calvinist view, but perfectly logical in the Catholic view.
One of my oldest friends is a Presbyterian (in Texas) and has NO problems with Catholics. Her son became one and she is fine with that...as long, as she says, he has found peace.
THAT shows her true Christianity.
They are just a little bit more liberal than your Pope.
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Your comment would have been sufficient without the addition of the above.
If it "all comes from grace," then it was God who effected everything. Either it is "all," or it is part. This is clearly what Augustine and the scripture teach, not that part of it is grace, and part of it is human will assenting to it, but that it is all of grace, and the will is remade by that grace "whenever" He so desires, as in the quotes I already provided (which you seem to have not bothered to read). The difference between your view and Augustine's is, for Augustine, grace was sufficient for both conversion and ultimate salvation, while for you, it is not, but the will must have its due. Thus your view is more in tune with Semi-Pelagianism, or with the modern day Arminian, which Augustine also condemned:
"We know that God's grace is not given to all men. To those to whom it is given it is given neither according to the merits of works, nor according to the merits of the will, but by free grace. To those to whom it is not given we know that it is because of God's righteous judgment that it is not given." Augustine - On Rebuke and Grace
“And further, should any one be inclined to boast, not indeed of his works, but of the freedom of his will, as if the first merit belonged to him, this very liberty of good action being given to him as a reward he had earned, let him listen to this same preacher of grace, when he says: “For it is God which works in you, both to will and to do of His own good pleasure;” (Php 2:13) and in another place: “So, then, it is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shows mercy.” (Rom 9:16) Now as, undoubtedly, if a man is of the age to use his reason, he cannot believe, hope, love, unless he will to do so, nor obtain the prize of the high calling of God unless he voluntarily run for it; in what sense is it not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shows mercy, except that, as it is written, “the preparation of the heart is from the Lord?” Otherwise, if it is said, “It is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shows mercy, because it is of both,” that is, both of the will of man and of the mercy of God, so that we are to understand the saying, “It is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shows mercy,” as if it meant the will of man alone is not sufficient, if the mercy of God go not with it—then it will follow that the mercy of God alone is not sufficient, if the will of man go not with it; and therefore, if we may rightly say, it is not of man that wills, but of God that shows mercy, because the will of man by itself is not enough, why may we not also rightly put it in the converse way: “It is not of God that shows mercy, but of man that wills,” because the mercy of God by itself does not suffice? Surely, if no Christian will dare to say this, “It is not of God that shows mercy, but of man that wills,” lest he should openly contradict the apostle, it follows that the true interpretation of the saying, “It is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shows mercy,” is that the whole work belongs to God, who both makes the will of man righteous, and thus prepares it for assistance, and assists it when it is prepared.”(Augustine, The Enchiridion on Faith, Hope and Love, Ch. 32)
I'm looking for one where Augustine says that the unjustified man is free only to sin; you might have a case there for a disagreement. (We don't think Augustine is infallible any more than you do.).
"But this part of the human race to which God has promised pardon and a share in His eternal kingdom, can they be restored through the merit of their own works? God forbid. For what good work can a lost man perform, except so far as he has been delivered from perdition? Can they do anything by the free determination of their own will? Again I say, God forbid. For it was by the evil use of his free-will that man destroyed both it and himself. For, as a man who kills himself must, of course, be alive when he kills himself, but after he has killed himself ceases to live, and cannot restore himself to life; so, when man by his own free-will sinned, then sin being victorious over him, the freedom of his will was lost. For of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. This is the judgment of the Apostle Peter. And as it is certainly true, what kind of liberty, I ask, can the bond-slave possess, except when it pleases him to sin? For he is freely in bondage who does with pleasure the will of his master. Accordingly, he who is the servant of sin is free to sin. And hence he will not be free to do right, until, being freed from sin, he shall begin to be the servant of righteousness. And this is true liberty, for he has pleasure in the righteous deed; and it is at the same time a holy bondage, for he is obedient to the will of God. But whence comes this liberty to do right to the man who is in bondage and sold under sin, except he be redeemed by Him who has said, If the Son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed? And before this redemption is wrought in a man, when he is not yet free to do what is right, how can he talk of the freedom of his will and his good works, except he be inflated by that foolish pride of boasting which the apostle restrains when he says, By grace are you saved, through faith." (Augustine, The Enchiridion on Faith, Hope and Love, Chapter 30. Men are Not Saved by Good Works, Nor by the Free Determination of Their Own Will, But by the Grace of God Through Faith.
But it would not have amused me if I had left it out, nor would it have been a proper reply to the spirit of your post.
Gee....could you please define the *spirit* of my post?
Whoops, I forgot to note that the first Italics is Claud, and the second italics is Campion. I responded to both of you in the same post.
I apologize, after re-reading your post, it turns out I read it wrongly. I thought you were generalizing all Presbyterians as liberal.
I change my previous post to the following “But it would not have amused me had I left it out.” The part about the “spirit” of the post is justly removed, but the amusement must stay.
“The OPC observes and worships the pope’s calendar,”
1) Please show evidence that anyone in the OPC worships any calendar.
2) What calendar do you use?
Verga: The reference is to the liturgical calendar for reading of scriptures, Holy days of the church which are celebrated by both Protestant, Catholic, and Orthodox Christians.
It is NOT a reference to the names of individual days and months that are used in today’s English language and all the sources it received those names from, particularly from ancient Rome.
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