Posted on 05/31/2014 3:30:55 PM PDT by boatbums
The Wizard of Oz has fascinated adults and children for many years. You know the story: a farm girl from Kansas finds herself in the middle of an unwelcomed adventure in an attempt to find the fanciful wizard, who, she hopes, will help her return home. After many trials and tribulations, she, along with her newfound friends, ultimately arrives at the Emerald City only to discover, much to her chagrin, that the "wizard" was really no wizard at all. He wasn't much of anything. In modern parlance, he was a wimp.
Believe it or not, many-a-Protestant claims to have experienced a disenchantment similar to that of Dorothy. And like the disenchanted Dorothy who just wanted to go home, so too these disenchanted Protestants want to go home. The home these Protestants long for, however, is not the home they left behind. These Protestants are Romeward bound.
True, the number of Protestant converts to Catholicism is less than the other way around. And there are less actual converts to Rome today than during previous points in the history of Catholicism. Nevertheless, there is something unique about this modern conversion phenomenon, since "the kind of converts appears to be quite different, with fewer obligatory conversions for such reasons as marriage. A significant number of Protestant evangelicals...are among those moving to Rome...."
Many evangelical Protestants are converting to "Roman obedience." Or, in the words of one such convert, they are "getting churched" or "poping." Jocularity aside, it is important for Protestants to come to grips with the reasons why these Neocatholics have set their compasses toward Rome, only then will Protestants be able to see some of the shortcomings of their espoused faith. Only then will they be able to meet the needs of those who are "taking the plunge."
(Excerpt) Read more at reformed.org ...
“That ain’t ‘conversion,’ its convenience.”
It’s adultery - just like Protestantism itself.
Vlad, you’re a good case in point. Condemning all divorces and remarriages is just as mindless and unbiblical as the other extreme of condoning them all.
“Same old, same old (2002): http://www.etsjets.org/files/JETS-PDFs/45/45-3/45-3-PP451-472_JETS.pdf";
My greatgrandfather was contemporary, ans well as a close friend of John Nelson Darby. Darby was a friend of Cardinal Newman. They had various discourse exchanges.
Darby also had a personal ministry to Queen Victoria. Darby was 20 years senior to my great grandfather. When Darby could no longer continue that ministry, it fell on my greatgrandfather to do so. He did so until her death.
A couple of things, in my experience Catholic converts can surely tell you why they converted and the stories don’t lend themselves to one-liners. It is usually a journey that took years.
The fact that most of them were enthusiastic, committed Protestants was surely a wonderful part of the journey.
Since I have become Catholic I know several people who have left the church and without fail they quit because they never heard the Bible in the Catholic Church and I just shake my head. We know that almost every word that is spoken comes directly from the Bible or we are doing what we told to do in the Bible.
It’s not the only one. But in 2014 America it’s definitely the most common one. The local mega church admits it and laughs about it. I went to Haiti with them so I heard it first hand.
As I indicated, the only proper response is to assess cases biblically. Rome is just as much at fault on this issue as your local megachurch, only for the opposite reason.
“Vlad, you’re a good case in point. Condemning all divorces and remarriages is just as mindless and unbiblical as the other extreme of condoning them all.”
1) I CLEARLY am not a case in point for any case you’re making.
2) I NEVER condemned ALL “divorces and remarriages”.
Your post is a “case in point” of how Protestants make things up out of thin air.
Great question! According to the quoted passage, faith is the gift. Salvation is also a gift, but faith must come first - as the only pathway to salvation. Faith is not a natural part of our fallen nature, so it must be "gifted" to us by God - for there is no good thing within us...
Because the Catholic Church is older?
“My greatgrandfather was contemporary, ans well as a close friend of John Nelson Darby....it fell on my greatgrandfather to do so. He did so until her death.”
Well, then your greatgrandfather knew someone pretty famous.
“I believe you were equating divorce and remarriage with adultery ipso facto.”
Jesus equates divorce and remarriage with adultery. Take it up with Him.
“Or you weren’t communicating very effectively.”
Jesus communicated very effectively on the issue:
“Whoever divorces his wife and marries another, commits adultery against her; and if she divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery.”
LOL! Rome is the only Church maintaining the Biblical standard on divorce and remarriage. The rest have caved, accommodated themselves to the world.
And I might add that it is disingenuous to deny condemning all divorce and remarriage, and then effectively do just that in your next post!
Gotta go, maybe another Protestant will take up.
Its an interesting question. The best analyses I’ve seen suggest it is the whole chain, (grace & faith resulting in salvation) = gift of God. This is based on the gender matching issues in the terms. Paul apparently used this technique as a kind of summation device.
Not true. I fellowshipped with some Baptist groups that were unrelenting in their total rejection of divorce, remarriage, etc. It is from them I first learned how to refute even the adultery exception (entirely from Scripture BTW). It’s generally unwise to make sweeping generalizations without a truly general knowledge of all the facts, generally speaking. :)
I think the Amish and maybe the old order Mennonites don’t accept civil divorce and remarriage either. Also no birth control within marriage, to my understanding.
Freegards
Your post is an example of why I believe modern adherence to Protestantism is at least in part to poor reading comprehension on the part of Protestants.
You wrote:
“And I might add that it is disingenuous to deny condemning all divorce and remarriage, and then effectively do just that in your next post!”
1) Jesus - remember Him? - condemned divorce and remarriage. Does He give any qualifiers?
2) What I did was condemn divorce and remarriage - just like Jesus.
3) Having said that, I think it is possible for a person to divorce and remarry and NOT commit adultery - but only when that first marriage was no marriage at all. Hence, for example, the Pauline privilege (1 Corinthians 7).
“Oh come on, you conveniently fail to notice Matthew 5:32, the parallel passage in which porneia is stated as an exception.”
I failed in no way. Divorce is NOT divorce AND REMARRIAGE. Those are two separate things. An exception to “no divorce” is not a support for “divorce and remarriage”.
“Also see 1 Corinthians 7:15, concerning desertion of the marriage.”
Already know the text, thanks.
“And I might add that it is disingenuous to deny condemning all divorce and remarriage, and then effectively do just that in your next post!”
Wrong again. JESUS - again, remember HIM? - JESUS condemns divorce AND REMARRIAGE. I never condemned ALL divorce and remarriage, but I know that must mean there was no real marriage to begin with. The vast majority of Catholics who defect from the Church to Protestant sects because of divorce AND REMARRIAGE are, however, committing adultery. And Protestantism itself is like adultery in its founding. Anglicanism was founded on it in the most direct way.
Jesus CONDEMNS divorce and REMARRIAGE. Go to the Lord with your complaint against His holy Word.
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