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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans; metmom; Elsie; .45 Long Colt

“These are mere assertions.”

If that is your best response to an argument, then we are wasting each other’s time. Yes, the opposite side in an argument makes assertions. I back mine with scripture. The passages you never cited to me, but that I answered anyways, do not in any way say that God makes lists of names, and elects or ‘non-elects’ individuals.

“The Arminian view is impossible, since it says clearly that “all” that the Father gives to the Son do come, and none who come are cast out...”

Incorrect. It says that while God reaches down to all, not all will believe. However, those that do believe are those that God gives to Jesus, and “whoever comes to me I will never cast out.” If we respond as Jesus commands “repent and believe”, then we are given to Christ and are placed ‘in Christ”...as it says,

“In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.”

IN HIM. When we heard the word of truth (God’s initiative) and believed in him, we were given life by the baptism of the Holy Spirit: “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all.”

As Jesus said: “And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

But speaking of proof, feel free to show your proof that John 6 is discussing the election of individuals to salvation...


90 posted on 05/08/2014 9:17:37 PM PDT by Mr Rogers (I sooooo miss America!)
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To: Mr Rogers; metmom; Elsie; .45 Long Colt; All
If that is your best response to an argument,

I would not be so bold, if I were you, to refer to your posts as an "argument" in the strictly logical sense. This is more of an "argument" in the Monty Python sense. I'll demonstrate:

"Incorrect. It says that while God reaches down to all, not all will believe. However, those that do believe are those that God gives to Jesus, and “whoever comes to me I will never cast out.” If we respond as Jesus commands “repent and believe”, then we are given to Christ and are placed ‘in Christ”...as it says,"

You are quoting me referencing the verse which says: "All that the Father giveth me will come to me, and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." Nowhere does it "say," using your word, that God "reaches down to all" and "not all will believe." It only says what it says, that "all" that the Father gives to the Son do come to Him, and none of these are cast out. Where do we find your "some"? Where do we find your "if"? Where do we find your "Reaching out to all"? It cannot be found in the verses you assert claim them. But if you can find them in this chapter, I would be pleased to be corrected. But, they are simply not there.

Further, you state that "those the Father gives" are those who already believe. IOW, they believe, and therefore God gives them to the Son. Where is your evidence for this assertion? It is presupposed, but it is not sourced in the text. The Father is the first cause of the giving in these verses, and the direct cause for unbelief in the other verse referenced, and to "come" is tied with believing. Hence Christ states that there are those who do not believe, and then immediately explains, 'That is why I told you, no man can come to me unless it is given to Him by the Father.' Thus to "come" to Christ is another way of saying "to believe" in Christ, and all those whom the Father gives to the Son, therefore, believe in Christ, and this infallibly, with none of them being lost.

IN HIM. When we heard the word of truth (God’s initiative) and believed in him, we were given life by the baptism of the Holy Spirit:

The verse you cite does not support your assertion in any way. In what way do you come to the conclusion that God's initiative is fallible, when the very first verse you quote says "having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will"? Now if he "works all things," there is nothing which He does not work, and if He works all things 'according to the counsel of His own will,' it is not according to our will, but His will born from His own plan, that He works "all things". Now if God works "all things," but not the effectual gift of faith which keeps and preserves, then He does not "work all things," but only some things, and leaves much to the "counsel of OUR own will," which is certainly fallible.

But speaking of proof, feel free to show your proof that John 6 is discussing the election of individuals to salvation...

My first evidence is that you've been speaking of individuals this whole time, though you imagine stuff into the verse like "Some," and "if," and "revealed to all," but subtracting entire sentences like "All that the Father gives..." and "no one can come to me unless it is given to them by my Father." Nevertheless, you also know that individuals are being discussed, although you change the meaning.

My second evidence is that He says "Him that comes to me I will no wise cast out," and "Believe on Him whom God has sent," in response to individuals, and, finally, to the unbelieving Jews, He refers to individuals who do not believe, saying "there are some of you who do not believe," and explains 'That is why I told you, no one can come to me unless it is granted to him by my Father."

Thus Christ speaks to 'him' who would come, "whoever," "some of you," "no man," or "no one" as the ESV puts it, responds to individuals, and the individuals who did not believe, and not, say, to a collective without any "ones" or "hims" or "yous" in them.

91 posted on 05/09/2014 5:58:08 AM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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