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To: af_vet_1981; metmom; Elsie; Mr Rogers; Gamecock; .45 Long Colt
John 12 and Luke 22 are first mention of his having been a thief, so I assume Judas made his decision at the time of John 6. Judas was one of Messiah's chosen Apostles. He called him and he responded, but he did not persevere and he chose to betray him. I see free will involved here. Of course I could be wrong, and we will find out.

You're wrong for a couple of reasons. First, in making the assumption. And, secondly, in the wording of the verse:

But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father." (Joh 6:64-65)

Christ was speaking to people who had heretofore followed Him:

Joh 6:66 After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him.

But He does not speak of them as having received it from the Father to believe, and then of rejecting. His reply to them is that He knew their unbelief, telling them so, and then saying "That is why I told you that no one can come to me... etc". Their faithlessness in His message is explained by that statement, which puts their unbelief not on a failure in God's "granting" or "giving" or saving, but in the lack of it.

140 posted on 05/10/2014 3:22:58 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
Yes, well the scripture speaks of faith that is dead, having no works associated with it. There is the parable of the sower where he clearly explains how this happens and why disciples do not persevere. It is almost a play on the Parable of the Four Sons, but not quite, for that has the wise son, the wicked son, the simple son, and the son who does not even know to ask. I still wonder if the parables had a common root.

Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower. When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful. But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Clearly faith and works of faith (fruit) are intertwined. One who is saved must persevere. One who is saved must have fruit.

141 posted on 05/10/2014 3:44:18 PM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
And, secondly, in the wording of the verse:

Not sure why you wrote that; I believe I copied John 6:70-71 (KJV) correctly.

143 posted on 05/10/2014 3:57:46 PM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began)
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