Posted on 05/01/2014 3:25:30 AM PDT by GonzoII
18 Amen, amen I say to thee, when thou wast younger, thou didst gird thyself, and didst walk where thou wouldst. But when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and lead thee whither thou wouldst not.
19 And this he said, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had said this, he saith to him: Follow me.
20 Peter turning about, saw that disciple whom Jesus loved following, who also leaned on his breast at supper, and said: Lord, who is he that shall betray thee?
21 Him therefore when Peter had seen, he saith to Jesus: Lord, and what shall this man do?
22 Jesus saith to him: So I will have him to remain till I come, what is it to thee? follow thou me.
23 This saying therefore went abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die. And Jesus did not say to him: He should not die; but, So I will have him to remain till I come, what is it to thee?
24 This is that disciple who giveth testimony of these things, and hath written these things; and we know that his testimony is true.
It is not my argument, but Scripture, which supports the ancient claim of the Church.
Show it...
Use it then; but your FIGHT is not with ME; but with REAL Catholic SCHOLARS!
So, which is it? What/Who is the Rock?
A)Is the Rock Christ?
B)Is the Rock Peter’s confession?
C)Is the Rock Peter’s faith?
I have to laugh every time someone trots out quotes from the Early Church Fathers as a means to “refute” Catholic teaching, somehow forgetting that these men were CATHOLIC, in full communion with the POPE who is the successor of Peter.
The answer to the above question is not A, or B, or C but ALL OF THE ABOVE. All three come together in the person of Peter, chosen by Christ to lead His Church.
What protestants can’t or won’t grasp is that the mission which Christ gives to Peter cannot be separated from the man Peter. The confession of Peter was not something Peter got by random chance. Rather, God revealed it to him for a reason, to equip Peter to lead the Church.
Jesus said to Peter in Luke 22:32, But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
This is what God has done throughout salvation history starting with Abraham, and continuing through Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David etc....These men, just like Peter, did not have extraordinary attributes which caused God to choose them. Instead, God gave to them the attributes(we call it grace) they needed to carry out God’ plan.
Peter is the rock of the Church, built on the rock of his confession and faith given to him by God for the purpose which God chose him.
Already done. I cannot force one to accept the truth.
Sure it can. Peter died, didn't he?
The mission is the mission and God can use anyone to fulfill it. It's not dependent on the man. People are dispensable because it's the work of the Holy Spirit.
We are ambassadors for Christ. The message of the gospel stands by itself.
Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. – 1 Corinthians 10:1-4
*****The mission is the mission and God can use anyone to fulfill it.*****
God chooses whom He chooses. We don’t know why or how He chooses, but we know it isn’t just anyone. But, you are right. Peter died. The need for a leader of His Church did not die with him, that is why we have his successors.
*****We are ambassadors for Christ.*****
Yes, we are but we are not all called to do the same things. Some are called and equipped for great, i.e. large things and some are called to small things.
All Apostles were disciples but not all disciples were Apostles.
Thank you Alamo Girl. It was a bit of a rhetorical question.
I know that God is the Rock. Still, Jesus gave the name rock to Simon and that is the discussion. Without God, without Jesus and without the Holy Spirit, Simon is of no import and could do nothing, but in HIM he could do all things.
Concerning Peter being called "rock" I would also point to Abraham being called "rock" - both of them being the first to believe, Judaic on the first hand and Christian on the latter:
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. - Matt 16:18
You are gracious and loving as always. Thank you
This is what the text says, and THIS is what your chosen religion's early leaders taught.
The guys that Catholics just LOVE to site as the Fountainhead of Truth...
• Augustine, sermon:
And Peter, one speaking for the rest of them, one for all, said, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God (Mt 16:15-16)...And I tell you: you are Peter; because I am the rock, you are Rocky, Peter-I mean, rock doesn't come from Rocky, but Rocky from rock, just as Christ doesn't come from Christian, but Christian from Christ; and upon this rock I will build my Church (Mt 16:17-18); not upon Peter, or Rocky, which is what you are, but upon the rock which you have confessed. I will build my Church though; I will build you, because in this answer of yours you represent the Church. — John Rotelle, O.S.A. Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City Press, 1993), Sermons, Volume III/7, Sermon 270.2, p. 289
• Augustine, sermon:
Peter had already said to him, 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' He had already heard, 'Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona, because flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of the underworld shall not conquer her' (Mt 16:16-18)...Christ himself was the rock, while Peter, Rocky, was only named from the rock. That's why the rock rose again, to make Peter solid and strong; because Peter would have perished, if the rock hadn't lived. — John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City, 1993) Sermons, Volume III/7, Sermon 244.1, p. 95
• Augustine, sermon:
...because on this rock, he said, I will build my Church, and the gates of the underworld shall not overcome it (Mt. 16:18). Now the rock was Christ (1 Cor. 10:4). Was it Paul that was crucified for you? Hold on to these texts, love these texts, repeat them in a fraternal and peaceful manner. — John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City Press, 1995), Sermons, Volume III/10, Sermon 358.5, p. 193
Evidently; you cannot break thru the teachings of the church to believe the teachings of the church.
And NOW he is in Heaven; helping Mary to filter the GOOD prayers to Jesus' Help Desk!
Pope Stephen VI (896–897), who had his predecessor Pope Formosus exhumed, tried, de-fingered, briefly reburied, and thrown in the Tiber.[1]
Pope John XII (955–964), who gave land to a mistress, murdered several people, and was killed by a man who caught him in bed with his wife.
Pope Benedict IX (1032–1044, 1045, 1047–1048), who "sold" the Papacy
Pope Boniface VIII (1294–1303), who is lampooned in Dante's Divine Comedy
Pope Urban VI (1378–1389), who complained that he did not hear enough screaming when Cardinals who had conspired against him were tortured.[2]
Pope Alexander VI (1492–1503), a Borgia, who was guilty of nepotism and whose unattended corpse swelled until it could barely fit in a coffin.[3]
Pope Leo X (1513–1521), a spendthrift member of the Medici family who once spent 1/7 of his predecessors' reserves on a single ceremony[4]
Pope Clement VII (1523–1534), also a Medici, whose power-politicking with France, Spain, and Germany got Rome sacked.
All believers are saints; but not all saint's are Saints©...
No; HE did not; and that is the fact.
We have a leader of the church. It's Christ, who appointed some to be elders and teachers and administrators, etc.
Christ is the head, not any one man, or any man. There's a difference between being the leader and overseer.
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