Pope Francis makes history with dual canonization of Pope John XXIII, Pope John Paul II

MDO,

“Not true, again. “Saint” just means “Holy,” and in most of Europe’s languages (the Romance languages) they are expressed by the same word (variations on Sancta) Like Spanish: Santa Cruz = Holy Cross.”

Saint means to be set apart. That is Biblical and is used by God to describe every true believer in Christ.

“Also in the Germanic languages (Heilig, etc.) So Christians can apply the word “holy” to any number of people, places, customs, or things, if they are sepecially associated with, or dedicated to, God.”

This is interesting, but has nothing to do with NT Greek usage of the word, which is inspired.

“None of those phrases are verbatim in the Bible,-— for that matter,the word “Bible” is not even in the Bible-— but we use them every day. Even if they ARE new super-Christian titles not found in Scripture. The canon (book-list) of the BIBLE is not fund in Scripture. So I do not think it unbiblical to speak of holy saints who hold up their holy hands, etc.”

Two points:

1. We are not talking about “speaking” of something, as in “holy saints who lift their hands. We are discussing the creation of a category of (we hope) Christians who are above all other Christians. This is unBiblical. It perverts the position of a man or woman in Christ by lessening it and exalting another without absolute knowledge.

2. The word “bible” isn’t in Scripture. Inspiration of certain writings is revealed by God in the Bible. As such, when we speak of the “Bible”, we know it is a collection of the inspired writings. It is short-hand for referring to the entire collection. The index of the Bible is not inspired. It is a listing of the writings that are believed to be inspired and is there for convenience. As you know, the same applies to verse numbers and chapters and the arrangement of the writings within the collection. “Trinity” is not found in the Bible, but we find the teaching of the Triune God in the inspired writings. What we don’t find is a teaching of a process to declare “Saints” - something that is foreign to Scripture. God declares all believers “saints”.

Best to you,
ampu

I was going to say "Good Morning," AMPU, but I've been out in the garden all morning trying to divide my clumps of chives, give my strawberries a little TLC, and put up some supports for my fava beans so they don't all bent and broken by the severe thunderstorms and high winds we have predicted. So here we we are, afternoon already, tired, eating some excellent potato soup (with a lot, lot, lotta chives in it), and attending to our mutual theological education :o)

"Saint means to be set apart. That is Biblical and is used by God to describe every true believer in Christ."

Agreed.

" We are discussing the creation of a category of (we hope) Christians who are above all other Christians. This is unBiblical."

Tis not unBiblical. Paul talks of those gone on before us as a "cloud of witnesses" and Revelation is full of references to these "myriads of people" "souls of the just" and so forth. All of these terms, like "saint," can be correctly be used for people both in heaven and on earth.

However how do we know how many of the saints on earth persevered to the end? We cannot know.

That is, we cannot know unless God tells us.

There is an unfortunate tendency, both in Protestant and Catholic funeral practices, to instantly acclaim all of the former pew-sitters who are now deceased, to be in heaven. You know what I'm talking about: newspaper obits that say "Gracie Ann Fuller, of Bluff City TN, age 87, has gone to be with the Lord." Eulogies guaranteeing that the recently-passed has "gone to a better place."

Comforting to the survivors, to be sure, but nobody knows that. The person might have had a huge, well-concealed, unrepented sin on their soul that successfully tempted them to reject Christ at the end.

Nevertheless, you end up, not just with funeral canonizations for one and all, but also being (analogically) raised to the honors of the altar: you have "Munsey Memorial Methodist Church" and "Ryder Memorial Presbyterian Church" and "Snyder Chapel" and "Clarence Walker Ministries" and "Steven Walker Ministries" and "Melanie Walker Ministries" (those Walkers sure do get around"---

And none of those Munseys, Snyers or Walkers have ever been subjected to a sustained and systematic scrutiny of their lives, words or works, lest alone received confirmation of their being in heaven from God via a posthumous miracle or two linked to their intercessory prayer.

One of the hoped-for results of a formalized canonization process is (to some extent) to prevent the proliferation of the kind of sentiment-based or Founder-Donor-based saint-making you find in almost every religious denomination.

You will find very few, if any, Catholic Churches dedicated to hometown sports heroes, deep-pockets contributors, Pastors'-Grandmas, or sweet pretty girls who died young.

In fact, if anyone in Rome had asked me, I would have said to set aside this project of the double-pope-canonization until they BOTH had TWO confirming miracles (Gideon and the fleece, you know) via their posthumous intercessory prayer, and they BOTH were dead for 50 years.

It prevents hasty celebrity canonizations.

Yes, I'm more traditional that the Pope.

OK, I finished my soup and my cornbread. Back outside now to put in the stakes and and stabilize my fava beans before the storm hits.

Grace and peace to you and all the saints.

MD-O,

My day was rainy and filled with doctor’s appointments. Yours sounds better.

“However how do we know how many of the saints on earth persevered to the end? We cannot know.”

No we do not know.

I would add that when someone has entrusted themselves to Christ’s finished work, the issue is eternal rewards vs. “If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.” I Cor 3:15.

In this sense ALL who have entrusted themselves to Christ - the Gospel of Grace in exchange for all their sins, is a saint, starting from the moment of salvation.

Those who are Christians indeed, will persevere. God called all Christians saints (without exception), while still alive.

“That is, we cannot know unless God tells us.”

Agreed. He did, of course tell us. What we do not know is whether they came to the point of faith in Him and His sacrifice alone. Their lives testify.

“There is an unfortunate tendency, both in Protestant and Catholic funeral practices, to instantly acclaim”

We agree - even more-so, every friend and every family member whether churched or not makes this assumption. And they are “looking down at us right now.”

“The person might have had a huge, well-concealed, unrepented sin on their soul that successfully tempted them to reject Christ at the end.”

We will disagree there. All sins were paid for at the cross.

“And none of those Munseys, Snyers or Walkers have ever been subjected to a sustained and systematic scrutiny of their lives, words or works, lest alone received confirmation of their being in heaven from God via a posthumous miracle or two linked to their intercessory prayer.”

Well, this is true to a large degree on earth. In heaven, and on earth, only God knows the heart. When it comes to posthumous miracles, no one can possibly know the miracle was the result of the intercession to the departed person - indeed, can not know the departed person heard it, prayed themselves, or that God’s miracle was a result of this prayer. Again, it is an opinion on earth - regardless of the level of scrutiny.

“One of the hoped-for results of a formalized canonization process is (to some extent) to prevent the proliferation of the kind of sentiment-based or Founder-Donor-based saint-making you find in almost every religious denomination.”

... at the expense of adding requirements to God’s plain declaration.

“OK, I finished my soup and my cornbread. Back outside now to put in the stakes and and stabilize my fava beans before the storm hits.”

You must be south of us. Our frost date isn’t until May 15th. I’m still building raised beds.

“Grace and peace to you and all the saints. “

Mega Grace & Peace dittos back at you.

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