Shouldn't Bible-believing church leaders be speaking up on "sainthood"? (vanity)

[Biggirl]

Yes, AMEN to that.

[Biggirl]

I still believe in “free will” to accept or reject Christ . Humans can and do either accept or reject Christ. That is free will.

All I am asking kindly is to agree to disagree. OKAY?

[Biggirl]

People can and do SEEK God.

[Wyrd bið ful aræd]

Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with Me. Rev 3:20

[Biggirl]

Thank-you and God Bless.

God both calls people to faith and also wise people still seek Him.

“Seek the Lord while He may be found.”

[Faith Presses On]

We cannot say that there is simply “free will” in the way that we understand it. The matter is really beyond our human understanding in this world because God hasn’t revealed everything to us. He has revealed enough for us at this time, but we will only really understand everything in the afterlife, and there everyone will see that God has never done anything unjust and no one will be able to have a word of complaint against Him.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

(Romans 9:14-24)

A Catholic Bible also refers to those saved as “the elect”:

23 ‘If anyone says to you then, “Look, here is the Christ,” or “Over here,” do not believe it;

24 for false Christs and false prophets will arise and provide great signs and portents, enough to deceive even the elect, if that were possible.

[Faith Presses On]

That isn’t what’s being said, obviously. Only that the Church isn’t a building but those who have been saved. The Church is the Bride of Christ, so similarly we should think of ourselves as both, although of course we know individually that we aren’t the only person. The body of Christ has parts, and Paul talks about there being parts to the body, but if someone touches another person’s arm, it’s accurate to say either that the person touched the other person’s arm, or simply touched the person.

[Faith Presses On]

Consider also this, from Romans 8 (a Catholic translation):

We are well aware that God works with those who love him, those who have been called in accordance with his purpose, and turns everything to their good.

29 He decided beforehand who were the ones destined to be moulded to the pattern of his Son, so that he should be the eldest of many brothers;

30 it was those so destined that he called; those that he called, he justified, and those that he has justified he has brought into glory.

31 After saying this, what can we add? If God is for us, who can be against us?

32 Since he did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for the sake of all of us, then can we not expect that with him he will freely give us all his gifts?

33 Who can bring any accusation against those that God has chosen? When God grants saving justice

34 who can condemn? Are we not sure that it is Christ Jesus, who died — yes and more, who was raised from the dead and is at God’s right hand — and who is adding his plea for us?

It is a Christian’s job to share the good news of Christ with others, but everything that happens with salvation is not known to us or understood by us. We aren’t the head, but the body of Christ.

[Faith Presses On]

Those passages are true, of course, and this one as well needs to be included:

28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

(John 6)

Faith and works are not two separate things. Works that haven’t come from faith come from God’s enemy and the flesh (human pride). Jesus said to abide in Him because without Him we could do nothing.

After all, we do share in God’s work; you are God’s farm, God’s building.

10 By the grace of God which was given to me, I laid the foundations like a trained master-builder, and someone else is building on them. Now each one must be careful how he does the building.

11 For nobody can lay down any other foundation than the one which is there already, namely Jesus Christ.

12 On this foundation, different people may build in gold, silver, jewels, wood, hay or straw

13 but each person’s handiwork will be shown for what it is. The Day which dawns in fire will make it clear and the fire itself will test the quality of each person’s work.

14 The one whose work stands up to it will be given his wages;

15 the one whose work is burnt down will suffer the loss of it, though he himself will be saved; he will be saved as someone might expect to be saved from a fire.

1 Corinthians 3:9-15

[Faith Presses On]

After all, we do share in God’s work; you are God’s farm, God’s building. (1 Corinthians 3:9, a Catholic Bible)

[Faith Presses On]

“Love is love” doesn’t mean anything. But then you say, “Jesus explained...” which is the point. It has to be explained by someone, and people have different explanations for what it is. But Jesus was one who taught with “authority” as the people had never experienced before. He had such authority because He is God. The type of “love” the world (unbelievers) know is a corrupted form of true love, which only those who know the Father through the Son can know:

14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness.

15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

(2 Corinthians 6)

Jesus said to “do unto others as you’d have them do unto you,” and Paul wrote that love “does no harm to a neighbor, so love is the fulfilment of the law.” But suppose you tell someone it isn’t love to abort their child. They might answer that they wouldn’t have minded to have been aborted themselves, that they would have felt their parents had done them a kindness to keep them from having ever existed. Or suppose a married couple believes in “open marriage” or bringing other sexual partners into their marriage. To them, it’s love. The Bible also says that “the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked, who can know it?” People can believe they’re being generous because they’re generous, when really they’re getting something for their generosity. And love to some people can be found in communism, or atheism or humanism. The Bible also says “there’s a way that seems right to a man but the end of it is death,” and that when people turn away from God, they do what’s “right in **their own eyes,** and “all of our righteousness is as filthy rags.” We do have a conscience from God, but it’s been damaged by our sin.

“Now, when we call upon his name and are saved, He writes his law in our hearts and minds so we no longer need anyone to teach us his law.”

That contradicts a lot of Catholic doctrine. And going back to posts 306 and 305, this discussion was about Gentiles who didn’t so much as have the law, not about those who have been saved.

[Faith Presses On]

John 4 includes this story:

‘Go home,’ said Jesus, ‘your son will live.’ The man believed what Jesus had said and went on his way home;

51 and while he was still on the way his servants met him with the news that his boy was alive.

52 He asked them when the boy had begun to recover. They replied, ‘The fever left him yesterday at the seventh hour.’

53 The father realised that this was exactly the time when Jesus had said, ‘Your son will live’; and he and all his household believed.

And the Bible also says about the household in Acts 16:

29 He called for lights, then rushed in, threw himself trembling at the feet of Paul and Silas,

30 and escorted them out, saying, ‘Sirs, what must I do to be saved?’

31 They told him, ‘Become a believer in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, and your household too.’

32 Then they preached the word of the Lord to him and to all his household.

33 Late as it was, he took them to wash their wounds, and was baptised then and there with all his household.

34 Afterwards he took them into his house and gave them a meal, and the whole household celebrated their conversion to belief in God.

Baptism didn’t happen apart from belief, and infants and little children can’t form such a belief. The idea of “the whole househould celebrated their conversion to belief in God” wouldn’t include infants. They can’t “celebrate their conversion to belief” in something.

And what about Acts 2:37-38 (Catholic Bible):

37 “Hearing this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, ‘What are we to do, brothers?’

38 ‘You must repent,’ Peter answered, ‘and every one of you must be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

How can an infant “repent”? No infant can, and while the New Testament includes many instances of baptism of people who knew and understood what they were doing, it includes not a single instance of infant or small child baptism. When Jesus insisted the children be allowed to come to Him, He did nothing more than lay His hands on them.

If I have the time soon, I will look for more examples in the New Testament in which words are used similarly as “all your household.”

[PhilipFreneau]

I wrote: “Now, when we call upon his name and are saved, He writes his law in our hearts and minds so we no longer need anyone to teach us his law.”

You wrote:>>> That contradicts a lot of Catholic doctrine. And going back to posts 306 and 305, this discussion was about Gentiles who didn’t so much as have the law, not about those who have been saved.<<<

That is what I intended, but somehow it got sidetracked into an esoteric discussion of what is and is not love, and unrelated scripture about the works of the laws of Moses. Anyway, if you look at my original post, it contained this passage:

    "For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)" (Rom 2:12-15 KJV)

That statement has nothing to do with works of the laws of Moses, but (what I call) the law of the Lord. Paul indicated the Gentiles that have the law of the Lord written in their hearts are justified, even though they may have never heard of the Lord. Or, in other words, he wrote that it is not the hearers of the law that are justified, but the doers. Jesus put it this way:

    "A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things." (Mat 12:35 KJV)

And for those who demonstrate pretense of love, he stated:

    "This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me." (Mat 15:8 KJV)

I believe there is enough evidence in the scriptures to prove that people with good hearts--even those who have never heard of Jesus--will be saved by their works. After all, everyone is judged according to their works. Do you believe that?

Philip

[rwilson99]

So depending on the boy’s age... although he was healed by Jesus... not sure he’s saved?

This sounds like a pro-choice argument regarding when life really begins.

[Faith Presses On]

These are two different matters. In this case we’re talking about what a story in the Gospels says and reveals. It also isn’t dependent on the man’s son being a certain age or not. It is a matter of a child being immature so that he or she can’t repent or believe. When Pakistan put a baby on trial for murder recently there was an international outcry, for good reason.
Everything written has to be accounted for. It’s not a matter of having a license to decide that the Bible is contradictory so one can throw out what doesn’t fit one’s belief. When things seem contradictory, incomplete, etc., we have let it all speak to us since it’s all there for a reason. (Cont’d)

[Faith Presses On]

Actually, the point is that a baby or young child simply can’t repent or believe in Jesus as their Savior. In that case, a baby or young child simply isn’t counted. Maybe you heard that recently in Pakistan a baby was charged with murder until the international news reported on it. If, for example, several people and a baby were in a house where a crime was committed and one of them committed the crime, no one would have to say, “all but the baby are suspects.” Could they? Yes. But they could say “everyone there at the time is a suspect,” and most people wouldn’t even give a thought to the baby because they understood completely. And the Bible is even more extreme in leaving out explanation so that even apparent contradictions are created, like that we are to love others, but we are also to hate everyone close to us. The Bible also tells us flat-out to call no one father. As I said, too, I will try to find or be on the lookout for some similar uses of words, because I’ve encountered them. (CONT’D)

[Faith Presses On]

Something else to consider, too, is that Jesus told a man that he healed to sin no more lest a worse thing come upon him (John 4). We know little else about this man or even exactly what Jesus meant , but from this and other stories of Jesus’ encounters with people we see that He knew people and where they were spiritually individually. Wherever this man was, He needed a strong warning from Jesus after being healed. And he might even have been healed without repentance at that point in time.

[Faith Presses On]

I’ll reply on this soon. I didn’t have time to today.

[rwilson99]

Or perhaps, the promotion of ‘once saved, always saved’ as a protestant doctrine is an issue that should be of grave concern.

[metmom]

Or perhaps, the promotion of ‘once saved, always saved’ as a protestant doctrine is an issue that should be of grave concern.

Or perhaps Catholics should learn what the doctrine is really all about.

Christians keep telling them but they resort to this....

Our salvation is secure but it is NOT a license to sin with impunity and it IS supported by Scripture.

Security of the believer

John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

John 10:25-30 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.”

Ephesians 1:13-14 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Colossians 1:13-14 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Colossians 3:3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us,and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

2 Corinthians 5:4-8 For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight. Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.