Pay No Attention to That Man Behind the Curtain! Catholic History and the Emerald City Protocol

reformation21 ^ | April 2012 | Carl Trueman

[daniel1212]

I thought 'saints' are in Heaven already??

That would be referring to the resurrection, while presently being absent from the body, and present with the Lord, which all the verses which clearly speak of a N.T. believer's postmortem or post 2nd advent condition support. (Luke 23:43; Acts 7:59; 1Cor. 15:52; 2 Cor 5:8; Phil. 1:23; 1 Th 4:17; 1Jn. 3:2) showing it is with the Lord, in whose presence there is fulness of joy (Ps. 16:11)

I think your argument in essence is that even though bowing down and beseeching someone in Heaven other than than the Lord, and represented by a graven image, is not seen sanctioned in Scripture, and which type of thing is only condemned, and not explained as being hyperdulia, yet Catholics hold this latter adopted practice as a common one in the early church. As it defines what history is and means.

[LurkingSince'98]

Alex

I would agree however this all started because several folks on your side disagreed (to put it mildly) with my original statement, which was:

“I wouldn’t know since I have never been to a protestant service, however, I have been told by protestants that there is more Scripture in a Catholic Mass than they hear from their preacher or pastor on any given Sunday.”

“Now if you actually go to a Church on the Lords day, your particular mileage may vary.”

So I thought of a method to give your side a chance to “prove” my statement to be false, since they claimed my statement was false.

Since I don’t believe a contest is a contest unless folks have skin in the game, I voluntarily made a $250 donation to Jim Robinson and FreeRepublic and promised to add another $750 if your side could find a protestant church that had more Scripture than a Catholic Sunday or Weekday Mass (which we limited to Sunday for equivalence).

In this case I will just compare our little Catholic Church in the middle of absolutely nowhere’s Scripture to ANY protestant church anywhere, on any Sunday (your choice) provided someone is a member of said church, is present and records the entire proceeding.

Now I’m getting lots of suggestions on changing things and problems cause it will be too hard to compare and impossible to judge.

Let me assure you all:

first, the offer is real as I have already paid the $250 to Jim.

second, the followup offer is real and, if necessary, I will place the $750 in escrow for Jim should you all win the contest,

third, nobody is going to be changing or modifying the rules since as someone mentioned they work for a non-profit, which means they are paid with OPM (Other Peoples Money), in this case this offer is for MOM (My Own Money) therefore, my contest rules,

fourth, it is not too hard it is just not easy, so the quitters won’t even try and the doers will figure out a way to get it done,

fifth, Jim Robinson and FreeRepublic as the recipient of the funds is the single most qualified and best one to judge who wins the contest - does anyone have a problem with that?

I am looking for the protestant light brigade or Calvinistas or others to step up and pledge the $750 on the protestant side - since I would rather Jim and FreeRepublic get the whole $1000 if not from me when you lose, then from your side.

Now I’m still getting comments that it is a forgone conclusion that protestants have more scripture in their Sunday service than Catholics at Sunday Mass. Well that is certainly not what I have been told, so now is the time for you to prove it.

It is for FreeRepublic and

For the Greater Glory of God

[Gamecock]

Sorry, my understanding of Scripture is that we are not to make wagers.

I know the Roman Catholics have long cloaked gambling under the guise of good works, but this Calvinist don’t play that.

[LurkingSince'98]

Game,

First it is a contest - I am not betting on your failing - I am paying another for your specific performance - that is a huge difference, and would only be consider3ed a wager in your mind.

My offer is a compensation for your performance of a deed which does not depend on chance and which is paid to someone else.

Also a wager is placing money which will pay back to your funds based on certain odds.

#1 you are not wagering any money

#2 the winnings will not be paid back to you but to FR

#3 there are no odds to this - if fact from what I have heard from your compatriots you can’t lose.

#4 I specifically structured it so that under no circumstances could it be considered a wager.

#5 I think that now you are afraid that you are going to lose.

What say you other protestants is this contest a wager?

It is designed to raise money for FreeRepublic and

Ad Majoram Dei Gloriam

[metmom]

it must be a worship service that any member of the protestant caucus or Calvanist light brigade actually attends.

Why? How is it relevant whether the service is one that is attended by some FReeper or not? That wasn't part of the original deal in post 630, which is this....

Jim, to defend my honor against the accusation of my dishonesty, I would like to make a friendly contest with the proceeds going to you here at FreeRepublic. I have just made a $250 donation and I will make another $750 donation if anyone can disprove my claim that there is more Scripture in a Catholic Mass than in a protestant service on any Sunday.

So why are you moving the goalposts now?

[CynicalBear]

I’m not sure why Catholics would read scripture extensively anyway. It’s secondary to what the Catholic Church teaches. I haven’t yet figured out why Catholics get upset when others say they aren’t taught as much scripture as Protestants. How many times have we been scoffed at for claiming “Sola Scriptura”? If scripture isn’t to be the sole source for doctrine why get upset that scripture isn’t first and foremost in the Catholic Church?

[LurkingSince'98]

My money my rules.

and there was no ‘deal’, as I was asked several, simultaneous, clarifying, questions while I was on a jobsite and could not respond as is evidenced to my reply to daniel1212.

I first brought it up in post 630 and was asked for clarification by Alex Murphy in post 716 and daniel1212 in post 727 while I was out of the office.

Participation is completely voluntary, but I think it would be good if you helped your team.

AMDG

[Gamecock]

Money exchanges hands. It’s is a wager.

[LurkingSince'98]

Cyn.. let me take a stab at that.

For Catholics the Mass is first and foremost.

Impossible to speak for all Catholics, but the Sola Scriptura part is immensely foreign to them just as tradition is foreign to protestants.

It is a huge gulf between almost all Catholics and protestants, which can be crossed-over one-on-one but rarely if ever on a forum like FR.

For the Greater Glory of God

[LurkingSince'98]

so every time money exchanges hands it is a wager?

Do you make this up as you go along?

No money ever touches your hands - you can count on that.

It is wages for services - you must produce documentation -

that are paid to someone who is not you.

maybe you want to check that out with an elder - other wise you could never perform any work for a charity.

FR is looking for donations not bets otherwise it would just give him a stack of scratch and sniff lottery tickets.

AMDG

[daniel1212]

In this case I will just compare our little Catholic Church in the middle of absolutely nowhere’s Scripture to ANY protestant church anywhere, on any Sunday (your choice) provided someone is a member of said church, is present and records the entire proceeding.

So on your side are you comparing what is contained in the RC mass as the standard against what is contained in the recording of the entire service of a Prot church?

And while in Rome, a member can be one who was sprinkled but rarely attends Mass, and some Prot churches do not have a formal membership list, or one has not yet made himself one, but one has attended about 50 services during the past year, then what is your qualification for being a member?

I can see how this can be manipulated, and think you would just be better just having a recording from at least the sermon that is attested to by the pastor as being typical of the service, versus your RC liturgy.

And making Jim the judge is fine, but did you check with him? He can be busy, while the recording should also be made available. But back latter - off to Bible study! Praise God.

[WVKayaker]

For the Greater Glory of God

You continue to post that little blurb at the end of many of your posts, yet it belies the content of what you actually say. There is little within your words that glorify God.

You should accurately state what you are saying in ALL of this BS you postulate.

You continue to bash Protestant Christians, yet you only try to advance Roman Dogma...

For the Greater Glory of God the Roman Catholic Cult!

"Of course we don't worship Mary. We only venerate her. We also don't make graven images which draw eyes from Christ..."- Roman Cult Apologists

[Elsie]

Looks like a lizard tail that’s fallen off; twitching; while the lizard himself makes a getaway...

[Elsie]

Sincerest form of WHAT?

[Elsie]

No fair!

You are posting FACTS!!!

[Elsie]

...the Catholic and Protestant churches have failed to stem the tide of immorality here in America.

True dat!

[Elsie]

...the 59% of white Catholics and 57% of Protestants who voted for Romney.

Sad, sad, SAD!!!

They'd rather have a DECEIVED MORMON lead them than a Marxist...

SPEW!!!

[Elsie]

What are your thoughts about him bowing down to Muslim women?

I would hope, as a gentleman, he would bow to ANY woman with whom he was shaking hands!

[Elsie]

... with whom he was shaking hands!

I remember when men used to remove their hat in the presence of a lady...

[Elsie]

I hear that These Guys are looking to hire a fifth...