Pay No Attention to That Man Behind the Curtain! Catholic History and the Emerald City Protocol

reformation21 ^ | April 2012 | Carl Trueman

[Gamecock]

[daniel1212]

As a matter of fact, I still had that tab my browser, so even though I used my own words (out my own mind!), I was not far from the annotation at source:

Gregory with Dove of Holy Spirit Dictating,

But which you provided in support of Catholic prelates and doctors of the Holy Church writing under Divine inspiration, besides Scripture, which without clarification is a distinction without a difference, and theologically would make God the author of such extraScriptural writings, and infallible papal statements, as He is of Scripture.

Care to explain the difference?

[Alex Murphy]

That one doesn't seem to want to die.

Some people want to die, but they want someone else to be guilty of the deed. The masochist says "please hurt me" but they can't understand why the sadist says "no" in reply.

[metmom]

Gregory the Great writing as the Holy Spirit dictates to him

Well, now, there's irrefutable proof....

Someone carves and image of what they imagined happened so it must be fact.

No wonder Catholics believe everything that comes down the pike.

[daniel1212]

And I will say in return - you put a lot of your CATHOLIC eggs in one basket which just happened to be translated by the POPE's loyal subjects, where their direction wasn’t necessarily the Holy Spirit but under the direct orders of ..

Even more so, in the height of sola persona, regardless if the Latin grammar is correct,

CCC 882 For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered.

Besides that, the second affirmation of Cajetan, that the Pope heretic can be truly and authoritatively deposed by the Church, is no less false than the first... it must be observed in the first place that, from the fact that the Pope deposes bishops, it is deduced that the Pope is above all the bishops, though the Pope on deposing a bishop does not destroy the episcopal jurisdiction, but only separates it from that person. — http://www.fisheaters.com/bellarmine.html

“The Pope’s authority is unlimited, incalculable; it can strike, as Innocent III says, wherever sin is; it can punish every one; it allows no appeal and is itself Sovereign Caprice; for the Pope carries, according to the expression of Boniface VIII, all rights in the Shrine of his breast. As he has now become infallible, he can by the use of the little word, 'orbi,' (which means that he turns himself round to the whole Church) make every rule, every doctrine, every demand, into a certain and incontestable article of Faith. No right can stand against him, no personal or corporate liberty; or as the Canonists put it -- 'The tribunal of God and of the pope is one and the same.'” - Ignaz von Dollinger, in “A Letter Addressed to the Archbishop of Munich”, 1871 (quoted in The Acton Newman Relations (Fordham University Press), by MacDougall, 119, 120

First Vatican Council: So, then, if anyone says that the Roman Pontiff has merely an office of supervision and guidance, and not the full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the whole Church, and this not only in matters of faith and morals, but also in those which concern the discipline and government of the Church dispersed throughout the whole world; or that he has only the principal part, but not the absolute fullness, of this supreme power; or that this power of his is not ordinary and immediate both over all and each of the Churches and over all and each of the pastors and faithful: let him be anathema. [so much for the EOs] — First Vatican Council, Chapter 3 (1869-1870) http://www.ewtn.com/library/councils/v1.htm

[metmom]

you know you can go to confession too to a priest even though you are protestant - try it - especially face to face-

Confession isn't face to face. It's in confessionals, with the priest sitting in one section and the person confessing in another and they are separated by a screen with a little slidey window to keep you from hearing what he's saying to the person on his other side while you're waiting your turn.

You can barely make out the form of the priest through the screen.

But it sure isn't face to face.

What would be better would be to confess to the person wronged and ask THEIR forgiveness face to face for real.

[metmom]

Have you got Scripture to back up any of that?

Or is that another contrivance of the Catholic church?

[metmom]

No replies.

Fancy that......

[metmom]

A blanket pardon. Yet if the conscience not examined, and the conviction not come (conviction -- not to be confused with condemnation -- this is a very important difference) then I would hardly be able, by effort of my own conscience examining itself, to find the truth of the matter as to those things found even within my own heart, the human heart being wicked beyond all things -- who can know it? ---as it is written Jeremiah 17:9

And yet there is this....

2 Corinthians 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Thank God that it is not dependent on our actions or righteousness. Sin breaks the lines of communication between Father and child, but does not sever the relationship.

Yes, we still sin and yes, we do need to confess it, but once a child of God, always a child of God because it is not dependent on OUR righteousness. We have been GIVEN His and He took our sin.

That's why the salvation of the believer is secure and OSAS is valid.

[metmom]

I post, -- on Religion Forum that is, -- the teaching of the Catholic Church as I understand it, and generally, I do.

Every man his own little pope.

[metmom]

“Did all those who followed Christ follow Him even unto glory?....The point of this instruction is to decide whether the number of Christians who are saved is greater or less than the number of Christians who are damned; it will, I hope, produce in you a salutary fear of the judgments of God.”

Christians aren't damned. If someone is damned, they aren't a Christian.

To say that Christians are damned means that their salvation is not based on faith but on works. It's a legalistic trap the enemy has set up to snag Christians into legalism and believing in a works based salvation.

[metmom]

My impression of “Biblical” prayer is far more about what is in each individual pray-er's heart intention than the words he chooses. Sometimes, words are not even necessary. Droning on in repetitive, communal prayer probably bores God more than it does the congregation.

I would rather my kids talk to me and ask me things themselves than to recite poetry at me, thinking that that is communication with me or that I'll give them something for their performance.

"Hey, Mom. If I recite the Lord's Prayer five times, can I have _______?"

[LurkingSince'98]

well good luck with that one - what I call the EASY OPTION.

As Peter mentions a lot of folks are going to be very surprised.

but your protestant so as you said your ‘saved’ so no problems for you.

but just what was Paul working out? why was he fearful and trembling? and what did Paul know that you don’t??

BTW, good luck with that.

For the Greater Glory of God

[LurkingSince'98]

you know EVERY TIME you post you once again prove how poorly catechized you were as a Catholic.

as a Catholic I am telling you it is possible, so how is it as a protestant you know better than I what the Church allows or doesn’t allow???

Ad Majoram Dei Gloriam

[metmom]

You should have pinged the RM to that one....

[metmom]

but just what was Paul working out? why was he fearful and trembling? and what did Paul know that you don’t??

You tell us.

Problem with most if not all, Catholics, is in quoting that verse in Philippians, they neglect to quote the whole thing, but as usual, cherry pick it.

Philippians 2:12-13 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

[LurkingSince'98]

you said “Confession isn’t face to face.”

Again you are not just wrong you are fractally wrong on every level of scale.

Face to face confession is optional but has always been an option for anyone.

Only impediment is when a priest is hearing confessions on a all-women retreat then it is always in a regular confessional.

AMDG

[LurkingSince'98]

IF YOU ARE SAVED...THEN WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO WORK OUT??

AMDG

[LurkingSince'98]

you know the “once saved always saved” thing you’ve got going - I hate to break it to you, but protestants in these parts would just describe you as an ex-Catholic looking for the “EASY OPTION”.

I believe that OSAS is just protestant-lite and that a slight majority of protestants don’t have OSAS as part of their theology.

I can think of several protestants who may want to private mail you to discuss OSAS.

For the Greater Glory of God

[LurkingSince'98]

but wouldn’t he know that already?

/insert sarcastic smiley here

AMDG