RE: No, you’re just a Protestant. No Protestant is “catholic” by definition.
Nope, Protestants are NOT ROMAN Catholic by definition. The term “Catholic” means UNIVERSAL. As long as one believes in Jesus Christ and His teachings one IS by definition, a member of the catholic (universal) church.
RE: You don’t get to make that determination. The Catholic Church does.
In which case, the CATHOLIC church did make the determination by virtue of the Lord of the Church — Jesus Christ Himself.
RE: He believed in a false gospel. I never doubted he believed in Jesus and was baptized.
Which goes back to the original question which you never answered — what is the true gospel?
I’m still waiting....
RE: No. You must believe in the true gospel to be a Christian in the fullest sense of the term.
Agree. In which case, heretics are NOT Christians. Not in the fullest sense of the word.
RE: You can, however, be a Christian and have false beliefs - even about the gospel - as Protestants demonstrate every day.
NOT NECESSARILY. It depends on the ESSENTIALS of what one believes or denies. Gnostics are not Christians because they DENY an essential of the Christian faith — the INCARNATION of Jesus Christ. They say they are Christians and they practice baptism but John says THEY ARE NOT OF US.
So, simply having false beliefs is not the criteria — it is the ESSENTIALNESS of the false beliefs that differentiates a Christian from a non-Christian.
RE: “Gnosticism was considered a heresy (Ireneaus fought against it in his work AGAINST HERESIES).”
Yes, and?
AND THEREFORE THEY WERE NOT CHRISTIANS EVEN AS THEIR BELIEFS WERE FALSE. They were also considered HERETICAL.
So, a heretic ( one who denies ESSENTIAL Christian belief ) CANNOT BE Christian ( as per John’s epistle ).
RE: I never said being a heretic MAKES ONE A CHRISTIAN. The idea that you just spent time and energy to refute something no one ever claimed is hilarious!
But you said one can have heretical beliefs and still be Christian. So, I guess the question becomes — HOW SERIOUS and ESSENTIAL a heretical belief should be.
I would then say believing in a FALSE GOSPEL qualifies as being a serious heretic, one who CANNOT BE Christian.
So, it goes back to my question TO YOU — what is the gospel?
Since you said Kennedy believes in a FALSE GOSPEL.
I want to understand how FALSE his belief is to you.
RE: St. Patrick was Catholic. He believed in the Real Presence in the Eucharist and the authority of the pope.
Well, I believe in the authority of the Pope — IN SO FAR AS HIS TEACHNGS ARE IN ACCORDANCE WITH SCRIPTURE. Does that make me a Roman Catholic?
I believe the Pope’s authority derives from GOD’s word, if He teaches God’s word faithfully, then he has God’s authority. But then I believe that authority applies to every person as well.
As for the REAL PRESENCE in the Eucharist, can you cite me a writing of St. Patrick that shows us that he believes that?
RE: No. To say that anyone who does anything - no matter how good - has received acclamation for it by the faithful is simply untrue.
Says who? YOU? Well that’s just you.
RE: Also, the saints who were acclaimed as such were known to lived lives of heroic virtue.
And so? What about those other Christians who have lived lives of heroic virtue that men do not know of but God knows of? Why can’t they be acclaimed?
RE: They need not have ever “preached” a moment in their entire lives. Preaching is no more necessary for canonization that it is for justification of sanctification.
Canonization is only a process for those who MEN KNOW ABOUT.
It is not necesssary for considering someone a true saint.
There are MANY Saints we do not know of that are true saints in God’s eyes.
RE: Which isn’t your puny, latter day, 16th century or later, invented sect. It’s the Catholic Church.
If one is faithful to the ORIGINAL teachings of the apostles as given in scripture, it is NOT your puny, latter day invented sect. It IS the faith as originally given by Jesus Himself.
RE: And you’re still wrong - as I already demonstrated. Most people, even those who go to heaven, are never acclaimed a saint after their deaths. No acclamation means no canonization by acclamation. Your premise, therefore, is inherently flawed.
Nope, it is your premise that is false. One does not need men’s acclamation, one need’s GOD’s acclamation whether men know it or not.
RE: he Church was most decidedly “UNIVERSAL ( catholic )” for it was after all the Catholic Church. Even Protestants have had to admit that St. Patrick was Catholic:
I never said St. Patrick was not catholic, I simply question your definition of the word — catholic as exclusive to those who go to the church that you go to.
Catholic is the Greek phrase (katholou), meaning “on the whole”, “according to the whole” or “in general”. One is a member of Christ’s CATHOLIC church by virtue of belief in Him and His teachings.
“For whosoever BELIEVES in Him HAS everlasting life” ( John 3:16 ).
St. Patrick is catholic, yes, but so are those who are NOT in the ROMAN catholic church.
RE: He believed a false gospel. Yes, and?
And it begs the question -— WHAT IS THE GOSPEL?
You have to DEFINE it for us to determine whether your statement is right or wrong.
RE: No, it was an objectively true statement and irrefutable in fact
If it is an objectively true statement, then you should be able to tell me — WHAT IS THE TRUE GOSPEL? You have been avoiding the question and thus far, doing a very good job of NOT ANSWERING it.
Here is what the apostle Paul said about the gospel:
1 Corinthians 15 ( I use the Douay Rheams version ):
Now I make known unto you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you have received, and wherein you stand; [2] By which also you are saved, if you hold fast after what manner I preached unto you, unless you have believed in vain. [3] For I delivered unto you first of all, which I also received: how that Christ died for our sins, according to the scriptures: [4] And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day, according to the scriptures: [5] And that he was seen by Cephas; and after that by the eleven.
Then he was seen by more than five hundred brethren at once: of whom many remain until this present, and some are fallen asleep. [7] After that, he was seen by James, then by all the apostles. [8] And last of all, he was seen also by me, as by one born out of due time. [9] For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. [10] But by the grace of God, I am what I am; and his grace in me hath not been void, but I have laboured more abundantly than all they: yet not I, but the grace of God with me.
[11] For whether I, or they, so we preach, and so you have believed.
_________________
OK, that is what St. Paul preached as THE GOSPEL.
Why in your opinion, does Kennedy NOT believe in that?
“Nope, Protestants are NOT ROMAN Catholic by definition.”
No, Protestants are Protestant by definition. To say they aren’t “ROMAN Catholic by definition” might make them Melkite Catholics or Maronites or Eastern Orthodox. Notice how you said they were not Christian by definition? You apparently have a lower opinion of Protestants than someone might first think – and you’re one of them.
“The term “Catholic” means UNIVERSAL. As long as one believes in Jesus Christ and His teachings one IS by definition, a member of the catholic (universal) church.”
Protestants believe in heresies so they do not believe all that is necessary to be in the Church. They have sects, tens of thousands of them, but no Church.
“In which case, the CATHOLIC church did make the determination by virtue of the Lord of the Church — Jesus Christ Himself.”
The Catholic Church already has determined that Protestantism is heresy. Protestants are not in the Church.
“Which goes back to the original question which you never answered — what is the true gospel?”
I did answer why his was false.
“I’m still waiting....”
Great. You’re going to be waiting until the thread dies out. Get comfy.
“Agree.”
If you did, you would have just contradicted yourself.
“ In which case, heretics are NOT Christians. Not in the fullest sense of the word.”
A heretic can be Christian – hence, Protestants are Christians. They just aren’t Christians in the fullest sense.
“NOT NECESSARILY. It depends on the ESSENTIALS of what one believes or denies. Gnostics are not Christians because they DENY an essential of the Christian faith — the INCARNATION of Jesus Christ. They say they are Christians and they practice baptism but John says THEY ARE NOT OF US.”
Being “NOT OF US” does not stop a Protestant from being a Christian. It means he is not a Christian in the fullest sense and is not in communion with the Church.
“So, simply having false beliefs is not the criteria — it is the ESSENTIALNESS of the false beliefs that differentiates a Christian from a non-Christian.”
Protestants are “NOT OF US”.
“AND THEREFORE THEY WERE NOT CHRISTIANS EVEN AS THEIR BELIEFS WERE FALSE. They were also considered HERETICAL.”
Gnosticism was not Christian. Gnostics were luring Christians into their sects. Some Gnostics even entered the Church and lived as Christians for some years. Hence, the worry over their doctrines as heresies was very real and realistic.
“So, a heretic ( one who denies ESSENTIAL Christian belief ) CANNOT BE Christian ( as per John’s epistle ).”
That isn’t what John says. The fact that he says they are not “of us” does not mean they are not Christian. It means they are not in the Church.
“But you said one can have heretical beliefs and still be Christian.”
Protestants are living proof of that.
“So, I guess the question becomes — HOW SERIOUS and ESSENTIAL a heretical belief should be.”
No, the question should be: why belong to a heretical group or why embrace any heresy like Protestantism?
“I would then say believing in a FALSE GOSPEL qualifies as being a serious heretic, one who CANNOT BE Christian.”
Since what you say simply doesn’t matter, and you don’t get to decide these things, it’s still certain that Protestants believe in heresy but are Christians nonetheless.
“So, it goes back to my question TO YOU — what is the gospel?”
You still comfy?
“Since you said Kennedy believes in a FALSE GOSPEL. I want to understand how FALSE his belief is to you.”
It doesn’t matter how false his beliefs are to me.
“Well, I believe in the authority of the Pope — IN SO FAR AS HIS TEACHNGS ARE IN ACCORDANCE WITH SCRIPTURE.”
I don’t believe you for a second on both counts.
“Does that make me a Roman Catholic?”
Ask one. I’m Catholic.
“I believe the Pope’s authority derives from GOD’s word, if He teaches God’s word faithfully, then he has God’s authority. But then I believe that authority applies to every person as well.”
Sorry, I have no reason to believe you are being honest in your answer.
“As for the REAL PRESENCE in the Eucharist, can you cite me a writing of St. Patrick that shows us that he believes that?”
Read James McGoldrick’s book.
“ Says who? YOU? Well that’s just you.”
No, it’s just objective fact.
“And so? What about those other Christians who have lived lives of heroic virtue that men do not know of but God knows of? Why can’t they be acclaimed?”
Because they’re not known. You answered your own question when you said, “What about those other Christians who have lived lives of heroic virtue that men do not know of but God knows of?” Do you think about what you post?
“Canonization is only a process for those who MEN KNOW ABOUT.”
Did anyone ever claim it was a process for those who were
not known?
“It is not necesssary for considering someone a true saint.”
So you’re claiming it is necessary for considering someone an untrue saint? Do you actually pay attention to what you write?
“There are MANY Saints we do not know of that are true saints in God’s eyes.”
Of course. Is anyone claiming otherwise? Why are you spending so much time – again – arguing against things no one has posted???
“If one is faithful to the ORIGINAL teachings of the apostles as given in scripture, it is NOT your puny, latter day invented sect. It IS the faith as originally given by Jesus Himself.”
No Protestant is faithful “to the ORIGINAL teachings of the apostles as given in scripture”.
“Nope, it is your premise that is false.”
Nope, only yours. No acclamation means no canonization by acclamation. That is irrefutable.
“One does not need men’s acclamation, one need’s GOD’s acclamation whether men know it or not.”
Again, who here is claiming otherwise?
“I never said St. Patrick was not catholic, I simply question your definition of the word — catholic as exclusive to those who go to the church that you go to.”
The very understanding of “catholic” precludes the inclusion of Protestantism. It’s not about my definition of the word. It’s about THE definition of the word and THE definition of Protestantism.
“Catholic is the Greek phrase (katholou), meaning “on the whole”, “according to the whole” or “in general”. One is a member of Christ’s CATHOLIC church by virtue of belief in Him and His teachings.”
Nope. One is catholic only when he is Catholic. No Protestant can be Catholic because he is a Protestant. He must leave behind his heresy to be Catholic. No one can be Protestant (i.e. a holder of heretical doctrines lumped together under the banner of “Protestantism”) and be “universal” at the same time. Heresies are particular untruths. Holding to them draws you away from what is Catholic.
“St. Patrick is catholic, yes, but so are those who are NOT in the ROMAN catholic church.”
The only Catholics are Catholics. No Protestant is a Catholic. St. Patrick was Catholic.
“And it begs the question -— WHAT IS THE GOSPEL?”
It doesn’t beg the question. Still comfy?
“You have to DEFINE it for us to determine whether your statement is right or wrong.”
I post what I want, where I want and how I want – within the rules. You have no claim to determine what is right or wrong and your track record so far doesn’t inspire confidence.
“If it is an objectively true statement, then you should be able to tell me — WHAT IS THE TRUE GOSPEL?”
I am able. That doesn’t mean I’ll do what you want. Still comfy?
“You have been avoiding the question and thus far, doing a very good job of NOT ANSWERING it.”
Stay comfy.
“Here is what the apostle Paul said about the gospel:”
And yet Protestants teach a false gospel.
“OK, that is what St. Paul preached as THE GOSPEL. Why in your opinion, does Kennedy NOT believe in that?”
He didn’t. I already said why.