Posted on 03/08/2014 10:06:40 PM PST by NKP_Vet
The following outline shows that Jesus intended to create a holy, visible Church; complete with a prime minister, a hierarchy, binding authority, and perpetuity—the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.
It is important for Protestants to understand some basic facts. Contrary to the modern belief that the Bible is a “blueprint” or “textbook” which explains how a church should be structured, it is a product of the Catholic Church—a compilation of writings that reflect a structure that was already present. As such, the “Bible alone” has no reason to provide fine details of proper ecclesiology; however, proper ecclesiology is detectable. Shortly after Jesus’ resurrection, the Catholic Church wrote lots of letters. The Catholic Church discerned which of those letters were inspired. By the end of the fourth century (Councils of Hippo A.D. 393 and Carthage A.D. 397) the Catholic Church finalized the “table of contents” of the Scriptures and called the entire body of writing “the Bible”. In other words, the Bible would not even exist if the popes and the hierarchy did not exist.
(Excerpt) Read more at thechurchofchristiscatholic.com ...
You can find the part about the believers then alive in the text, else Peter was preaching to the dead. To what purpose? They already had their reward. As for believers hence, are we not discussing this? I don’t separate the faithful remnant of Israel from the Church as it is the same tree. No Jew/Greek/male/female/ just one in Christ. All in the royal priesthood of our King. As for the membership in the first resurrection those who died in Christ or who will before the Second Coming are those members. The extant believers in Christ transformed at His Second Coming will be also.
Explain John 1:1 then for us.
In the 1600’s while Islam was pushing into the Mediterranean and Central Europe, Christians were knocking each other out in internecine struggles over the minutia of theological points.
The same thing is going on today. We have bigger fish to fry than minor theological issues amongst ourselves.
Maybe I misunderstood your original post to me. You failed to include any reference to any part of the post you replied to, so I can only assume we are referring to the same thing. Let's rehash: this was your post #310:
"Except for that to be true, those people would have been preached to by Peter, not happening. He was talking to believers then alive and believers hence."
This was my question in #319:
"Where can I find that? Where did Peter write that he was talking to believers then alive and believers hence?"
>>> I don’t separate the faithful remnant of Israel from the Church as it is the same tree. No Jew/Greek/male/female/ just one in Christ. All in the royal priesthood of our King. <<<
Where can I find that in the scriptures? I quoted many references that point to old-covenant Israel as the holy nation--the royal priesthood. Can you show me any reference that points to the inclusion of Gentiles in that priesthood?
>>>As for the membership in the first resurrection those who died in Christ or who will before the Second Coming are those members. The extant believers in Christ transformed at His Second Coming will be also.<<<
What can I find that in God's Word?
Philip
Where can I find that in the scriptures? I quoted many references that point to old-covenant Israel as the holy nation--the royal priesthood. Can you show me any reference that points to the inclusion of Gentiles in that priesthood?
Romans 11 speaks of the remnant and the Gentiles.
What can I find that in God's Word?
Rev 20 talks of the first resurrection. Believers who died in Christ.
John 1:1
1 John 1:1-2
The Word = Jesus Christ, the Son of God; the Word /= every word found in the Scriptures.
Jesus the Cornerstone; Jesus the Word; but the church rests not on scripture or Christ?
THE GOSPEL OF JESUS is the gospel of Paul, since it came from Him, and refers to the message of salvation,
1 cor 15
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
Was he talking about his own scripture? no way.
The words of Jesus is the only Gospel we have.
Matt 24
Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mark 16:19 - So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
John 14:16
16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
John 14:26
26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
John 16:7
7Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
If Jesus was figuring on appearing to people there would be no need for the holy spirit which came on the day of Pentecost to have come and there is no mention of any one seeing Jesus at the event.
So i maintain that Paul had the holy spirit present at his conversion but could not have actually saw Jesus except in the minds eye, this is where we get the so called sightings of Jesus or Mary.
Again John 14:26
he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Why would the Apostles have to be dependent on the Holy spirit making them remember what he said when he was with them if in fact the Holy spirit could just teach them from the start?
The Holy spirit taught them how to understand what Jesus had said to them.
The focus should be on what Jesus said as a man who was the son of God.
Seems to be a lot of contradiction between what Paul says and what is in acts.
And what did Paul preach that was in opposition to what Christ taught?
Peter told us who he was speaking to:
"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied." (1 Pet 1:1-2 KJV)
Peter provided additional details on the identity of his audience. First, it appears they were under temptation, which in those days typically meant the Jews were tempting them to revert back to Judaism:
"That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:" (1 Pet 1:7 KJV)
He was speaking not too far removed from the days of Christ (e.g., "in these last times:")
"But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you," (1 Pet 1:19-20 KJV)
And he was speaking to the children of Israel, as described by Moses and Isaiah:
"But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;" (1 Pet 2:9 KJV)
"For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God, and the Lord hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth." (Deu 14:2 KJV)
"And they shall call them, The holy people, The redeemed of the Lord: and thou shalt be called, Sought out, A city not forsaken." (Isa 62:12 KJV)
His audience was clearly not the Gentiles:
"Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation." (1 Pet 2:12 KJV)
Besides that statement, it was very doubtful any Gentile, especially those who were "babes" to the Word, would have known what the term "oracles of God" meant:
"As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby." (1 Pet 2:2 KJV)
"If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen" (1 Pet 4:11 KJV)
Specifically, Peter was speaking to the scattered lost sheep of the House of Israel:
"For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls." (1 Pet 2:25 KJV)
Recall that Jesus was only sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel:
"But [Jesus] answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Mat 15:24 KJV)
And Jesus sent his disciples only to those lost sheep:
"These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give." (Mat 10:5-8 KJV)
And the disciples remained exclusively on that path until Peter saw the vision of the unclean animals later in the book of the Acts, which was also around the time Paul was converted. Even then, they (including Paul) spent much time trying to convert the Jews.
Philip
>>>Romans 11 speaks of the remnant and the Gentiles.<<<
How does Romans 11 contradict what I have written?
Philip
>>>Rev 20 talks of the first resurrection. Believers who died in Christ.<<<
There are two resurrections in Revelation 20:
1) the first resurrection for the elect, who serve with Christ for a “thousand” years.
2) the general resurrection for the rest of us, after Satan is defeated.
Take note that after the first resurrection it is NOT Christ who reigns for 1000 years, but his elect who reign with him for 1000 years. Christ reigns forever.
Philip
You will be hard pressed to find the difference between elect and believer.
Christ comes again once at the 'end' to judge the living and the dead. The dead in Christ are in heaven now as their souls. On the last day their bodies will be resurrected and changed. But they are there now. I won't argue chiliasm with you. Christ returns once at an unknown time not preceded by a known period of peace, the Church is under fire until He returns for it; the many passages attesting to these facts are not in figurative or prophetic language but clear ones.
Does Romans say that Gentiles are grafted into the tree(Israel)? If so, then the promises to those of the natural tree, the root, avail all the branches. You limit those blessed.
NOT Christ reigning...elect reigning with Him...reigns forever. Sounds like Christ does reign at this time, just like He is doing now in heaven with His own.
Then you mean that only the "red letters" in the gospel accounts themselves - which are not even called gospels by the writers, except Mark, and is not even used in John - is the only meaning of "gospel" which is absurd. You basically ignored most of what i said.
Go do a word search on "gospel" and you will see in the 77 times it occurs, which is by far outside the gospel accounts, that it is the message of salvation that is the main definition of the word, not all the word of Christ in Matthew for instance. referred to.
When Peter preached the gospel in Acts 10:36ff then he did not quote even one word Christ personally spoke, yet that was called the gospel, which they believed and were saved by. (Acts 15:7-9)
These people did not even know what was going on so how could they be witnesses? if they were when did they come forth as witnesses?
What you mean how could they be witnesses? They were eye witnesses to a supernatural event that completely changed a man's mission and left him blind. And that this event was what Paul described was attested to by God, with multitudes of witnesses, as Christ's claims were.
If Jesus was figuring on appearing to people there would be no need for the holy spirit which came on the day of Pentecost to have come and there is no mention of any one seeing Jesus at the event.
That also is superficial reasoning. Paul's seeing of the Lord was not that of seeing the Lord coming in the clouds in His glory, nor did Moses and the 70 elders actually see God dwelling in all His glorious light, "which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen." (1 Timothy 6:16)
Yet Paul saw the risen Lord in a real way, and if Isaiah who "saw the Lord" in Is. 6, even though it was by a supernatural vision, and the apostle John likewise saw the Lord and fell at His feet as dead, (Rv. 1:17) had communication with God ("US"), then in whatever manner of seeing Paul saw the Lord was that in which revelation took place. What manner that seeing was remains open ot conjecture, but the Holy Spirit calls it seeing.
Nor does a personal appearance of the Lord take the place of the Holy Spirit of Christ being an every believer. Many disciples saw the resurrected Christ, and some of whom He instructed, but the Lord had to open their minds to the understanding of the Scriptures for that to be effectual. (LK. 24:13-49) And the apostles who walked with Christ for 3 years and were taught by Him were radically different men whence the Holy Spirit was poured out to them. Thus even if the Lord personally instructed every person then it would not be the same as receiving the Spirit of Christ.
In addition, throughout the Bible God appeared to souls, but these are special miracles, and do not take the place of the Spirit.
So i maintain that Paul had the holy spirit present at his conversion but could not have actually saw Jesus except in the minds eye, this is where we get the so called sightings of Jesus or Mary.
The Holy Spirit does not explicitly define in what manner Paul saw the Lord, but states or describes others as seeing the Lord, and if He saw Paul saw the Lord, that means Paul did see the Lord.
Why would the Apostles have to be dependent on the Holy spirit making them remember what he said when he was with them if in fact the Holy spirit could just teach them from the start?
Certainly God could have, and He also could have always provided bread supernaturally, or transported every believer the way He once did for Phillip, etc., and in fact God could appear in the sky and manifest Himself in such a way that that no rational atheist could deny Him (but which would not make them real believers, as Israel often as atheists when God supernaturally delivered them from Egypt).
But it is absurd to reason that since God can do something then there is no reason for His to do it another way.
The only wise God has His reasons, and the norm is for God to work supernaturally in natural ways, in which man is allowed and enabled to take a part, in dependance upon God, and which sometimes sees over supernatural manifestations.
The Holy spirit taught them how to understand what Jesus had said to them.
But the Lord Jesus said His Spirit would do more than just and remind them of His words and give them understanding, bu would provide more words of Christ to them:
"I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you." (John 16:12-14)
As Jesus spoke the Father's words by the Spirit, so the Spirit speaks Jesus' words.
The focus should be on what Jesus said as a man who was the son of God.
Which is what Paul did, as commissioned by Christ to do, (Acts 26:14-18) and rejoiced in anyone truly preaching Christ. But which certainly is not restricted to what is contained in the 4 gospel accounts, which themselves beg for a theological explanation, and which the Lord used apostles and mainly Paul for.
Seems to be a lot of contradiction between what Paul says and what is in acts.
There are no real contradictions except what superficial analysis sees, or what certain souls with an agenda contrive. You seem to have been influenced by what one or the other say, but without further specifics i cannot address them. Here is a link which may help. http://www.tektonics.org/ntdocdef/actspaul.php
When were you manifestly born again?
Excellent response for the 'red letter only' adherents.
And what did Paul preach that was in opposition to what Christ taught?
Gospel = Good news. Is not Paul’s preaching of the redemptive work of Jesus Christ and our apprehension of it by grace through faith, not good news? The whole of the Bible is about Christ.
It is easy. These passages point to Israel as the elect:
"For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me." (Isa 45:4 KJV)
And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.
Here Jesus is clearly pointing to Israel, since he was only sent to the lost sheep of the House of Israel:
"And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" (Luke 18:7-8 KJV)
And who were the sealed servants of God in the Revelation? The children of Israel:
"Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel." (Rev 7:3-4 KJV)
In book of Daniel, the angel stated the first resurrection was only for the children of Israel:
"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." (Dan 12:1-2 KJV)
The angel also made it clear that the first resurrection was a partial resurrection (e.g., "many" instead of "all.")
And who judges the twelve tribes? The disciples:
"And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." (Mat 19:28 KJV)
"Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations. And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel." (Luke 22:28-30 KJV)
Their thrones are mentioned in Revelation 20:
"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." (Rev 20:4-6 KJV)
There are no Gentiles to be found in any of those passages. Maybe you can point to some passages that clearly reveal Gentiles being part of the elect.
Philip
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