Posted on 02/24/2014 2:10:01 PM PST by SeekAndFind
Many skeptics assert that Paul of Tarsus (the apostle Paul) hijacked the early Christian religion, changing the theology from what Jesus originally taught. Usually offered as proof for this claim are the doctrines found in Paul's great theological work, his letter to the Romans. Without a doubt, the book of Romans contains the most complete exposition of orthodox Christian doctrines. Are these doctrines contrary to what Jesus taught? Do they conflict with the teachings of the Old Testament from which they were purportedly derived? If Paul really "invented" Christianity, then one would expect that his teachings would be different from Jesus, the other apostles, and disciples.
Christians claim that Paul of Tarsus met Jesus on a trip to persecute Christians in Damascus. Struck blind for three days, Paul waited for Ananias (one of Jesus' followers) to heal him. Converted by the experience, Paul passionately proclaimed the gospel to the Jewish and Gentile world. This gospel included doctrines including the atonement of sin through Jesus' death on the cross and justification through faith. Paul, in his letter to the Galatians, indicated that he received this gospel by revelation of Jesus Christ:
For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ. (Galatians 1:11-12)
If it were true that Paul received his teaching directly from Jesus Christ, then surely Jesus Himself would have taught what Paul was preaching.
The basis of the gospel is the belief that Jesus died for the sins of mankind. Jesus clearly indicated that His purpose was to come to die on a cross for the sins of the world.2 This concept was not a new one, since Isaiah first prophesied that the Messiah would die for our sins.1 Paul, of course taught this doctrine,3 as did John, Luke, and Peter.4 Other crucial doctrines taught by Paul were also taught by Jesus and the disciples:
For a list of verses, see the table below.
Doctrine | First Taught | Verse | Taught by | ||
---|---|---|---|---|---|
Jesus | Paul | Others | |||
Atonement by death on cross | Isaiah | Isaiah 53:5-121 | Matthew 10:38, 16:24, 26:28, Mark 8:34, 14:24, Luke 9:23, 14:27, 22:20, John 12:32-332 | 1 Corinthians 1:18, 11:25, Ephesians 2:8, 16, Colossians 1:20, 2:143 | John 1:29, 36, Acts 8:32, 1 Peter 1:18-19, 2:24, Revelation 5:12-14, 7:144 |
Believe in Jesus for eternal life | Job | Job 19:25-265 | Matthew 19:29, Mark 10:29-30, Luke 9:24, John 3:166 | Romans 5:21, 6:23, 1 Timothy 1:16, Jude 1:217 | Acts 11:17-18, 1 John 5:118 |
Righteousness by faith | Moses, Habakkuk | Genesis 15:6, Habakkuk 2:49 | Mark 11:22, Luke 7:5010 | Romans 1:17, 3:22, 3:25-26, 4:3, 9, 11, 13, 5:17, 9:30, 10:4, 10, Galatians 3:6, 11, Philippians 3:911 | Hebrews 11:4, 7, 2 Peter 1:112 |
Justification by faith | Moses | Genesis 15:6, Isaiah 53:1113 | Luke 7:50, 8:12 Mark 16:16, John 3:18, 5:2414 | Romans 3:28, 30, 5:1, 18, Galatians 2:16, 3:8, 2415 | James 2:2316 |
Forgiveness of sin through faith | David | 2 Chronicles 7:14, Psalm 86:5, Jeremiah 31:33-3417 | Matthew 9:2, 6, 26:27-28, Mark 2:5, 10-11, Luke 5:20, 24, Acts 26:1818 | Acts 26:18, Ephesians 1:7, 4:32, Colossians 1:13-14, 2:13, 3:1319 | Luke 1:76-77, Acts 2:38, 5:31, 10:43, 13:38, Hebrews 10:18-20, James 5:15, 1 John 1:7-9, 2:1220 |
Repentance | Isaiah | Isaiah 1:27, 30:15, Ezekiel 18:3221 | Matthew 4:17, Mark 1:15, Luke 5:32, 13:3, 24:46-4722 | Romans 2:4, 2 Corinthians 7:9-1023 | Matthew 3:2, Mark 1:4, Luke 3:3, Acts 2:38, 17:30, 20:21, 2 Peter 3:924 |
Besides the core doctrines of Christianity, Paul taught on many other theological topics, also taught by Jesus. Below is a list of some of these teachings (found in the gospels) compared to what Paul taught in his letters to the churches.
Teaching | Paul | Jesus |
---|---|---|
Parable of sower | 1 Corinthians 3:6-10 | Matthew 13:1-23 |
Stumbling stone | Romans 9:33 | Matthew 18:7 |
Ruling against divorce | 1 Corinthians 7:10 | Mark 10:11 |
Support for apostles | 1 Corinthians 9:14 | Luke 10:7 |
Institution of Lord's supper | 1 Corinthians 11:23-26 | Matthew 26:26-28 |
Command concerning prophets | 1 Corinthians 14:37 | Matthew 23:34 |
Lord's return | 1 Thessalonians 4:15 | Matthew 24:1-51 |
Blessing of the persecuted | Romans 12:14 | Luke 6:27 |
Don't repay evil with evil | Romans 12:17 and 1 Thessalonians 5:15 | Matthew 5:38-48, Luke 6:27 |
Pay taxes to authorities | Romans 13:7 | Mark 12:12-17 |
No stumbling block | Romans 14:13 | Mark 9:42 |
Nothing is unclean | Romans 14:14 | Mark 7:15 |
Thief in the night
|
1 Thessalonians 5:2 | Luke 12:39 |
Peace among yourselves | 1 Thessalonians 5:13 | Mark 9:50 |
Peace with everyone | Romans 12:18 | Mark 9:50 |
Do not judge | Romans 13:10 | Luke 6:37 |
The claim is often made in skeptical circles that Paul never describes the man Jesus of Nazareth, but only refers to a celestial Jesus. Of course, the claim is false, although the claim seems to be believed by a number of skeptics who probably never read any of Paul's New Testament books. In reality, Paul indicates that Jesus came into the world,25 and that he himself saw Him.26 In addition, Paul states that Jesus was a man27 made of flesh,28 ate and drank,29 bled,30 was crucified,31 died,32 and was raised from the dead.33 These are not the kinds of things that happen to some ghost Jesus. In virtually every book he authored (over 80 verses that I found), Paul clearly makes reference to Jesus the man, who lived and died on earth.
Physical Attribute | Verses |
---|---|
Jesus came into the world | 1 Timothy 1:15, Philippians 2:5-825 |
Jesus was seen by Paul | 1 Corinthians 9:126 |
Jesus was a man | Romans 5:15, 1 Timothy 2:5, Philippians 2:5-827 |
Jesus was flesh | Romans 1:3, 8:3, 9:5, 2 Corinthians 5:16, Ephesians 2:14-15, 1 Timothy 3:1628 |
Jesus ate and drank | 1 Corinthians 11:23-2529 |
Jesus bled | Romans 3:24-25, 5:9, 1 Corinthians 10:16, 11:25, 27 Ephesians 1:7, 2:13, Colossians 1:2030 |
Jesus was crucified | 1 Corinthians 1:13, 23, 2:2, 8, 2 Corinthians 13:4, Galatians 3:1, Philippians 2:831 |
Jesus died | Romans 5:6, 8, 10 6:3, 5, 9-10, 8:34, 14:9, 15, 1 Corinthians 8:11, 11:26 15:3, 2 Corinthians 5:14-15, Galatians 2:21, Philippians 2:8, 3:10, Colossians 1:22, 1 Thessalonians 4:14, 5:1032 |
Jesus was raised from the dead | Romans 1:4, 4:24-25, 6:4-5 9, 7:4, 8:11, 34, 9:17, 10:9, 1 Corinthians 6:14, 15:4, 12-17, 20, 2 Corinthians 4:14, 5:15 Galatians 1:1, Ephesians 1:20, Colossians 2:12, 1 Thessalonians 1:10, 4:1433 |
The idea that Paul invented Christianity out of some theological vacuum is completely without merit. Although Paul's Letter to the Romans is radically different from just about any other book of the Bible, the teachings found in the Book of Romans is also found in the Old Testament, the teachings of Jesus, and the teachings of the disciples. So, Paul didn't just make up doctrines to create a new religion. However, he did write the greatest theological treatise of all time in the Book of Romans. Not only are the core doctrines of Christianity found outside Paul's writings, but Paul himself taught many other theological issues that reflect the teachings of Jesus during His years of ministry. Contrary to the claims of some, Paul did not just write about some "cosmic Jesus," but described Jesus as a real man who lived and died on planet earth. In conclusion, Paul of Tarsus did not invent Christianity, but clarified the teachings of the Bible as no other Bible author ever has. In addition to his great theological writings, Paul was Christianity's greatest evangelist.
Paul: Follower of Jesus or Founder of Christianity? by David Wenham. Oxford New Testament lecturer Wenham examines the question, Was Paul thoroughly aware of Jesus' life and teaching, or did he largely create Christianity himself? Most of the discussion utilizes comparison of brief passages from the Epistles to the final written Gospels. Wenham points out both parallels and divergences, considering how Paul's writings and teachings may have influenced the oral traditions and early written texts that coalesced into the Gospels, and vice versa. He makes a strong case that most, but not all, of Paul's beliefs conform to the received Jesus tradition.
You say you like Jesus, basically, and would enjoy getting to know him, but I wonder of you consider that Jesus is either who he claims to be or he is the worst kind of con man, thief, liar, false prophet and lunatic. There really isn't a middle ground here - if we are being honest. There is no "fence riding" where your eternity is concerned - it may come in a blink of an eye. Please think about that.
Paul.....Saul before that fateful road trip.......became a follower of the Nazarene
after Christ had died and rose again and subsequently ascended for good from his earthly existence
There is a few years span before Paul’s supernatural vision conversion and Christ’s “death”
The Paul versus Peter thing is often a Catholic Protestant beef
Just ask Luther
Strike that last post....I see you don’t mean physical real life time ...like the disciples..
“Paul.....Saul before that fateful road trip.......became a follower of the Nazarene”
Follower yes, for the purpose of persecution of Jesus’ followers. Otherwise his heart would not have needed the words and experience the Risen Jesus gave to him.
After reading this entire thread, a few very important sets of scriptures comes to mind .
Matthew 12
25 And knowing their thoughts he said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
26 and if Satan casteth out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then shall his kingdom stand?
27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out demons, by whom do your sons cast them out? therefore shall they be your judges.
28 But if I by the Spirit of God cast out demons, then is the kingdom of God come upon you.
29 Or how can one enter into the house of the strong man, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
30 He that is not with me is against me, and he that gathereth not with me scattereth.
If this thread is any indication, Christianity does not have a chance. So much division Im even seeing personal attacks Ouch.
Mark 3:
24 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
25 And if a house be divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand.
26 And if Satan hath rise up against himself, and is divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end.
OR
Luke 11
17 But he, knowing their thoughts, said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house divided against a house falleth.
18 And if Satan also is divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? because ye say that I cast out demons by Beelzebub.
19 And if I by Beelzebub cast out demons, by whom do your sons cast them out? therefore shall they be your judges.
20 But if I by the finger of God cast out demons, then is the kingdom of God come upon you.
Could Christianity be more divided than it is right now?
I believe that Maccoby’s work lays out the general Jewish position, which I endorse and support.
Thank you. God Bless....
Fortunately, Christianity doesn't rely on humans to exist or to be effective.
I'm still interested in your definition of 'same level of spirituality', and what lies beyond trusting God.
“Fortunately, Christianity doesn’t rely on humans to exist or to be effective.
I’m still interested in your definition of ‘same level of spirituality’, and what lies beyond trusting God.”
Sorry, I did not reply earlier. Had a family emergency and have been traveling, with very limited internet access.
The statement, “Christianity doesn’t rely on humans to exist or to be effective” is not a logical comment.... Think about it..
“What lies beyond trusting God?” That’s an easy one. Experiencing God. That is the treasure buried in the field Jesus spoke of. Trusting or knowing you can do something is just a thought. Actually doing it experientially is what creates the real experience. If you don’t believe me, try just thinking about food for a few months rather than experiencing it.
“There is a few years span before Pauls supernatural vision conversion and Christs death”
Per Wiki: The Conversion of Paul the Apostle, was, according to the New Testament, an event that took place in the life of Paul the Apostle which led him to cease persecuting early Christians and to become a follower of Jesus. It is normally dated by researchers to AD 3336. The phrases Pauline conversion, Damascene conversion and Damascus Christophany, and road to Damascus allude to this event.
Paul’s conversion occurred after Jesus’ crucifixion.
Author and theologian John Stott is of the opinion that Paul’s conversion was gradual, and that the Damascus Road experience was the climax of his conversion. Stott bases this theory on Acts 26:14: “...it is hard for you to kick against the goads”. The inference is that God had pricked Paul’s conscience at the stoning of Stephenprotomartyr of Christianityand possibly Stephen’s trial. He believes Paul additionally was aware of and troubled by Jesus Christ’s death, and that his subsequent resurrection was attested to by hundreds, fulfilling Old Testament scripture.
Estimating the year of Paul’s conversion relies on working backwards from his trial before Junius Gallio in Achaea Greece (Acts 18:12-17) around 51-52 AD, a date which gained historical credibility early in the 20th century following the discovery of four stone fragments as part of the Delphi Inscriptions, at Delphi across the Gulf from Corinth.
Most historians estimate that Gallio (brother of Seneca the Younger) became proconsul between the spring of 51 AD and the summer of 52 AD, and that his position ended no later than 53 AD. However, the trial of Paul is generally assumed to be in the earlier part of Gallio’s tenure, based on the reference (Acts 18:2) to his meeting in Corinth with Priscilla and Aquila, who had been recently expelled from Rome based on Emperor Claudius’ expulsion of some Jews from Rome, which is dated to 49-50 AD.
According to the New Testament, Paul spent eighteen months in Corinth, approximately seventeen years after his conversion. Galatians 2:1-10 states that Paul went back to Jerusalem fourteen years after his conversion, and various missions (at times with Barnabas) such as those in Acts 11:25-26 and 2 Corinthians 11:23-33 appear in the Book of Acts. The generally accepted scholarly estimate for the date of conversion of Paul is 33-36 AD, placing the death of Jesus before this date range.
I have, that is why I trust His promises.
Christianity doesnt rely on humans to exist or to be effective is not a logical comment
And yet it is true. God runs the church, He provisions His own. Outside of Him there is no real life. The 'logic' of Christ's redemptive work is beyond human understanding and isn't apprehended without faith, a gift from God. Is 58:8-9. Yet, even through faith the works of God on our behalf are inestimable to human reason. We know and believe these things because of the love of God for us. By faith we inherit the Kingdom of Heaven, by faith we are saved. Faith isn't logical, but it is sufficient and it is the way God presents His promises to the believer.
That was my point even if poorly worded in response to OP
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