I can try ...
Your assertion, and the assertion of every preterist, whether hyper or mild, is that Matt 24:34 should govern our interpretation of the Olivet Discourse. That the term 'this generation' must refer to the generation alive at the time of Christ. The passage is ...
Matt 24:34 Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
My assertion is that the larger context of Matt 24:34 (namely all of Matt 23 through 25) rules out 'this generation' being those alive at the time of Christ.
Recall, beginning in Matt 23 Jesus begins to pronounce the seven woes upon the scribes and Pharisees. The last one is a pronouncement and a prophecy. The Jews acknowledged that their fathers were the ones who killed the prophets and Jesus uses a collective 'you' when proclaiming that they killed Zechariah. He prophecies that they are not done killing prophets as He continues in 23:34-35
34 “Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city,
35 so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
'whom you murdered between the temple and the altar' ... Jesus uses a collective 'you' here ... Obviously the people Jesus spoke this to, the scribes and Pharisees alive at the time, did not kill Zechariah ... Zechariah lived 500+ years before this. This is the clue that Jesus is using a collective 'you' here to mean ALL Jews (to include the ones who literally DID kill Zechariah). He is using 'you' here to mean the Jews as a race, as a people.
And then a passage that should not confuse you at all ...
36 Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
What is the nearest anticedent (Greek grammar rules here) to 'this generation' here in verse 36 ... It's the collective 'you' in the previous verse. Therefore 'this generation' must refer to the Jews as a race, all of them collectively, not merely the ones He was addressing at the time.
I think this position is furthered as He then addresses Jerusalem in verse 37 ... where He says that Jerusalem killed the prophets. Well a little common sense dictates that a city cannot kill people. Again, He is using a collective term (Jerusalem) to represent the Jews as a whole. Now notice He then says 'you' will not see me until you proclaim "BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD." Again, the 'you' cannot merely refer to those alive at the time of Christ because those certainly saw His brutal death. What about the proclamation? Why is this proclamation significant? Because this proclamation is Messianic! It cannot refer to the Triumphal Entry ... that already occurred in Matt 21.
My question to any preterist, whether hyper or mild, is simply this ...
In the events of AD 70, when did the Jews alive at the time (your 'this generation') proclaim Jesus to be their Messiah? Answer: They didn't ... and they haven't collectively as a nation up until this day ... we are still waiting for it.
This is why 'this generation' in Matt 23-25 cannot be restricted to the people alive during the time of Christ.
This is also why I think 'this generation' does not merely refer to the Jews alive during the time of the future tribulation period ... that is too restrictive as well (IMHO).
This generation shall not pass away until all these things take place ... the collective 'you', the nation as a whole, the race of people called Jews, will not pass away until they, as a whole, as a nation, as a people ... proclaim Jesus Christ as their Messiah and all the events predicted in Matt. 23-25 come to their fulfillment.
I am fairly confident that you at least now understand what I am saying ...
That was excellent! Great job! There is however one caveat I would bring up but will not in this thread as it would simply muddle up the present dialogue.
>>>>Your assertion, and the assertion of every preterist, whether hyper or mild, is that Matt 24:34 should govern our interpretation of the Olivet Discourse. That the term 'this generation' must refer to the generation alive at the time of Christ. The passage is ...<<<
"Matt 24:34 Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place."
>>>My assertion is that the larger context of Matt 24:34 (namely all of Matt 23 through 25) rules out 'this generation' being those alive at the time of Christ.<<<
First, let's put your quote into context. The disciples ask Jesus these things about the destruction of Jerusalem, his coming, and the end of the age:
"And Jesus said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down. Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?" (Matt 24:2-3, NKJV)
We know the destruction of Jerusalem happened in the disciple's generation, as Jesus said it would in the verse you quoted. Are we supposed to assume that Jesus was talking about two different generations: one for the destruction of Jerusalem, and another for his coming and the end of the age?
How do you explain all of these?
"But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come." (Mat 10:23 KJV)
"For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." (Mat 16:27-28 KJV)
"But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:27 KJV)
"Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate." (Mat 23:34-38 KJV)
"And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him. But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children. For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck. Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us." (Luke 23:27-30 KJV)
"And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation." (Acts 2:40 KJV)
That is a lot of "this generation" verses to explain away."
>>>Recall, beginning in Matt 23 Jesus begins to pronounce the seven woes upon the scribes and Pharisees. The last one is a pronouncement and a prophecy. The Jews acknowledged that their fathers were the ones who killed the prophets and Jesus uses a collective 'you' when proclaiming that they killed Zechariah. He prophecies that they are not done killing prophets as He continues in 23:34-35 . . . <<<
They killed Stephen, Peter, Paul, and many others that he sent, before the punishment phase was finished around 70 A.D. I wonder why they killed Zechariah? Maybe he warned them about this:
"…they shall look upon me whom they have pierced…."(Zech 12:10)
>>>'whom you murdered between the temple and the altar' ... Jesus uses a collective 'you' here ... Obviously the people Jesus spoke this to, the scribes and Pharisees alive at the time, did not kill Zechariah ... Zechariah lived 500+ years before this. This is the clue that Jesus is using a collective 'you' here to mean ALL Jews (to include the ones who literally DID kill Zechariah). He is using 'you' here to mean the Jews as a race, as a people.<<<
The blood of Jesus's generation of Israel and Judah paid for it. That is not only what Jesus said would happen, but that is confirmed in history. I personally consider the slaughter of 1.1 million Jews in the city of Jerusalem to be enough bloodshed. And there was even more shed in the outliers. When is enough, enough?
>>And then a passage that should not confuse you at all ...<<<
"36 Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation."
I was never confused about that verse until I heard others make futuristic claims about. Then I was only confused about how they could have dreamed up such a thing. It was not until later that I realized that a futuristic interpretation was essential to the rest of their doctrine. Without those contortions of time and tense, the doctrine crumbled like a house of cards
>>What is the nearest anticedent (Greek grammar rules here) to 'this generation' here in verse 36 ... It's the collective 'you' in the previous verse.<<<
Why was he not referring to the "collective" disciples he was actually talking to as the "collective" you? My Greek says "you" is derived "ye (yourselves.)" Sounds like you are implying Jesus was saying, "Hey, you guys, I ain't talkin' to you!"
>>>Therefore 'this generation' must refer to the Jews as a race, all of them collectively, not merely the ones He was addressing at the time.<<<
I heard it all before, and it sounds just as wrested now as all the other times.
>>>I think this position is furthered as He then addresses Jerusalem in verse 37 ... where He says that Jerusalem killed the prophets. Well a little common sense dictates that a city cannot kill people.<<<
He answered that question, before it was asked, by telling them they were exactly like their blood-thirsty fathers:
"And [Jesus] say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?" (Mat 23:30-33 KJV)
Additionally, if you recall, Israel was also judged "collectively" as a nation in the old testament. That "tradition" carried on to the very end of the old testament and the nation of Israel in 70 A.D..
>>>"Again, He is using a collective term (Jerusalem) to represent the Jews as a whole.<<<
Like I said …
>>>Now notice He then says 'you' will not see me until you proclaim "BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD." Again, the 'you' cannot merely refer to those alive at the time of Christ because those certainly saw His brutal death. What about the proclamation? Why is this proclamation significant? Because this proclamation is Messianic! It cannot refer to the Triumphal Entry ... that already occurred in Matt 21.<<<
And frankly, you don't know what it means, nor do I, nor does Mark Hitchcock (who for some strange reason pretends that argument justifies his time and tense contortions.)
>>>My question to any preterist, whether hyper or mild, is simply this ...<<< >>>In the events of AD 70, when did the Jews alive at the time (your 'this generation') proclaim Jesus to be their Messiah? Answer: They didn't ... and they haven't collectively as a nation up until this day ... we are still waiting for it.<<<
I'm not a preterist, but I will try to answer: Why are you waiting for it? Only a remnant was saved, as prophesied; and I assure you all of that remnant proclaimed Jesus as the Messiah (count is as more than an educated guess.) The dreamed-up notion that, after Israel "rejected" Christ, the Church was created as some sort of afterthought, or Plan B, is one of the silliest things I have ever heard. I cannot imagine the mind of a person that could dream that up. It could only come from the minds of charlatans like John Nelson Darby and Cyrus Ingerson Scofield; or, more sinisterly, someone or body who was trying to undermine the Church, or keep Jews from being saved, like Satan and his lieutenants. This is all you really need to know to counteract that notion:
"…Christ… loved the church, and gave himself for it;" (Eph 5:25 KJV)
But there is much more. The church, on heavenly mount Sion is referenced several times in the Old and New Testaments, with this as the likely context:
"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant..." (Hebrews 12:22-24)
With that context in mind, the following passages further identify the heavenly mount Sion:
"Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;” (1 Peter 2:5-9 )
"But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed." (Romans 9:31-33)
"For through him we [Jews and Gentiles] both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit." (Ephesians 2:18-22)
To dispel any notion that the Church was an afterthought: created only because the Jews rejected Christ; the chief cornerstone of the Holy Temple at heavenly Sion (or, Zion) was also prophesied by Isaiah, which was one of the references used earlier by Peter and Paul:
"Wherefore hear the word of the Lord, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste. Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place. And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it." (Isaiah 28:14-18)
In Matthew 21:42 Jesus quoted David (below) who also prophesied that Jesus would become the chief cornerstone:
"The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner. This is the Lord's doing; it is marvellous in our eyes." (Psalms 118:22-23 )
And Isaiah wrote of the stumblingstone in another chapter:
"And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem." (Isaiah 8:14)
Notice the “stumblingstone” serves both as a sanctuary for the just, and a snare for the wicked. Only a remnant were "just," and therefore saved.
Anyway, the prophets described the Church in the same manner as the apostles. Even Moses prophesied that the Lord would bring in the Gentiles:
"They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation." (Deu 32:21 KJV)
That was about 1500 years before Christ. Further, Moses said nothing about a second chance for Israel, but rather gave this warning:
"For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people." (Acts 3:22-23 KJV)
Does that sound like a "second chance" to you? Isaiah said that a root of Jesse (Christ) would not only bring in the Gentiles; but would gather together Israel and Judah from everywhere:
"And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth." (Isa 11:10-12 KJV)
Of course, as mentioned, only a remnant were saved. Christ called them his Lost Sheep, and made it clear that was his only mission while he was on earth:
"…I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Mat 15:24 KJV)
It would be most difficult to read anything into that, but I would guess some will. After Jesus collected his lost sheep, or nearly all of them, the "tents of David" were raised and the Gentiles were brought in, as prophesied in Amos 9:11 and fulfilled by the conversion of Cornelius, the Gentile. That happened around Acts 10.
All that stuff about the Jews rejecting Christ as meaning anything other than "the Jews rejected Christ, as prophesied," is adding words to the Word of God, which is a no-no.
>>>This is also why I think 'this generation' does not merely refer to the Jews alive during the time of the future tribulation period ... that is too restrictive as well (IMHO) . . . I am fairly confident that you at least now understand what I am saying ...<<<
I have heard it all before. I can say that whoever came up with those contortions of Jesus' plain words would have put the imagination of Rod Serling to shame.
Philip