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I believe Jesus and the apostles were speaking directly to their immediate audiences, and not to us, except in a general sense. For example, when Jesus said to his disciples:

"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." (Mat 24:34 KJV)

OK ... since you brought it up ... go back to Matt 23:36 ... you will see that 'this generation' cannot mean what you are claiming. If 'this generation' meant the generation that Jesus was speaking to right then and there ... when did they proclaim "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord?" (in the verses that follow). ... BTW ... that proclamation is Messianic ... blessed is the coming one ... since Matt 23 happened after the Triumphal Entry (TE), the fulfillment of that proclamation had to come after the TE. So the natural question is ... if all these things happened in 70 AD, when did the Jews living in Jesus day make that Messianic proclamation? ... they didn't !! And 'they' haven't made that Messianic proclamation to this very day!

The 'they' has to refer to something else ...

If you go back to Matt 23: you will find the statements of Jesus to the Pharisees ...

35 so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.

Do you see how Jesus used a collective 'you' to refer to the Jews as a people? ... The leaders as representatives of the entire Jewish race and nation? Those Pharisees were not present when Zechariah was slain ... yet Jesus said ... 'whom you murdered' ... So when Jesus used 'you' in 23:35 ... He did not mean 'you whom are alive now and that I am speaking to' since they were not alive when Zechariah was slain. This is a very important larger contextual item in the Matt 23-25 discourse.

I happen to disagree with most dispensationalists on what 'this generation' means ... most take it as the generation that is alive in the future ... when all these things will be fulfilled. I dont see it that way ... it makes the most sense, in the larger context of the Matt 23 discourse with the Pharisees that 'this generation' is a collective type phrase that encompasses the entire race of Jews. This generation will not pass away ... the collective 'you' in Matt 23:35 that Jesus said murdered Zechariah IS the collective 'generation' of Matt 23:36 and 24:34.

What do I think this means? It means that the Jewish nation will not be eliminated (the Jews still exist) before the events of the second coming can take place. Despite Satan's attempt at eliminating the Jews under Hitler, they still remain ... and WILL remain as a race of people until the second coming.

I think I am done with this thread ...

>>>OK ... since you brought it up ... go back to Matt 23:36 ... you will see that ‘this generation’ cannot mean what you are claiming. If ‘this generation’ meant the generation that Jesus was speaking to right then and there ... when did they proclaim “Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord?” (in the verses that follow). ... BTW ... that proclamation is Messianic ... blessed is the coming one ... since Matt 23 happened after the Triumphal Entry (TE), the fulfillment of that proclamation had to come after the TE. So the natural question is ... if all these things happened in 70 AD, when did the Jews living in Jesus day make that Messianic proclamation? ... they didn’t !! And ‘they’ haven’t made that Messianic proclamation to this very day!<<<

I have no idea what you are talking about, or why. Can you reword that using complete sentences?

(I hope this is not that same dumb argument that Mark Hitckcock used in one of his debates.)

Philip

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

Dartuser, I found your comments well thought out and stimulating. You are smarter than me. Please don't leave us.

Preterism seems a very morbid doctrine. Its focus is the judgment on the Jews and the destruction of Jersualem. It leaves the Gentile churches abandoned and falling into error since they did not understand the Scriptures and lost the core leadership of the early Church when the the Jewish believers were gathered and raptured/resurrected into heaven without telling them what was going on. There is no record of this in Church History.

Let's assume 2 Thessalonians was written in 52-54 AD. It almost sounds like Paul is talking about a Preterist who was early. Nonetheless, I don't recall Philip discussing this, but he is so prolific perhaps I missed it.

Where was the great falling away that extended to the Thessalonians ?
When was the man of sin revealed to the Thessalonians ?
When did the man of sin sit in the Temple of God at Jerusalem declaring himself to be God ?
Paul had told them this previously and now had to remind them to comfort them because some Preterists were troubling them. He clearly alludes that now they understand and then describes how Messiah is going to defeat the son of perdition with the spirit of this mouth and brightness of his coming.
Paul told them to hold fast to the traditions that he taught them when he explained this in person. And yet we have no Preterist tradition from the early Church Fathers so it seems Paul was not teaching them the doctrine of Preterism. We have Paul's doctrines in Romans. Compare Romans 9-11 with dark Preterism.
If Preterism were true, the Thessalonians were not directly involved, or at risk, like the Jews in the Land of Israel. Look at the text. Why would Paul be so concerned ? Do you really think he misunderstood and got it wrong ? He sounds very confident, in the Holy Spirit, that he knew exactly what was going to happen and why it had not happened yet. Why would we have a record of Paul's doctrines and somehow missed Preterism ? If it was important for the Thessalonians to know, who were not in Israel, why would it not be important for us ? If it happened as Phillip teaches, why is there no record from the churches that remained after 70AD ? Were all the elect raptured in 70AD ?
I also found interesting this article about Pella Pella: A Window on Survival
In the article “Church of the Apostles Found on Mt. Zion,” Bargil Pixner writes “The Judeo-Christian community in Jerusalem escaped this terrible catastrophe by fleeing to Pella in Transjordan and the countryside of Gilean and Bashan in expectation of the Parousia, the second coming of Christ. When this did not occur and they realized that the time of Jesus’ return was not yet at hand, they decided to go back to Jerusalem to rebuild their sanctuary on the site of the ancient Upper Room—where the Last Supper had been held, where the apostles returned after witnessing Jesus’ ascension on the Mount of Olives and where Peter delivered his Pentecost sermon as recorded in Acts 2. It was this site on which they made their synagogue. They were free to do this because they enjoyed a certain religious freedom from the Romans (religio licita) inasmuch as they were Jews who confessed Jesus as their Messiah, and not gentile converts.”