Moses or Christ? Paul’s Reply To Dispensational Error

http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org ^ | Charles D. Alexander

[PhilipFreneau]

He who would understand the prophets had better begin with Paul’s Epistle to the Galatians, where he will find that the Church is one in the Old Testament and New, and the New Testament Church is the fulfillment of all prophecy, the very last phase of God’s redemptive work on earth.

He will discover in Galatians who the true Israel is, to whom the promises are made and that there is no other Israel, and no further fulfillment of prophecy.

The problem of the Galatian believers was the conspiracy to impose upon them Jewish interpretations of prophecy, and to claim over them a Jewish priority or privilege. Paul repulses this conspiracy with unparalleled severity...

[redleghunter]

So God used the armies of the beast to bring judgment to Jerusalem? At what point in 70AD was the beast defeated?

[PhilipFreneau]

>>>Yeah I understand Wikipedia is not so great but you did not even provide a link to where you found this list. If it was through independent research then you know your list is riddled with liberal theologians who are scriptural skeptics.<<<

So what?

[redleghunter]

Resorting to the line that an opponent is calling Christ a liar is a typical losing preterist tactic.

If Isaiah 61 was literally fulfilled then when were the ruins rebuilt? When did foreigners come to tend the flocks around Zion? So of course you see this as allegory.

[af_vet_1981]

Only the antichristian Talmudic/Pharisaic Jews and their tagger-alongers, or those who have been deceived by them, believe Jesus was misspeaking or lying in Luke 21:22 about the O.T being fulfilled.

These comments seem unduly vitriolic and even antiSemitic, especially in the context of so many German theologians proffered to support a teaching contrary to the majority of Orthodox, Fundamentalist, and Evangelical believers. Reading about your sources I wondered how they abandoned faith for higher criticism and other error, leading to ungodly generations that plunged the world into war and Holocaust.

[PhilipFreneau]

>>>So God used the armies of the beast to bring judgment to Jerusalem? At what point in 70AD was the beast defeated?<<<

First, you have partly mischaracterized this event by omission. It should be noted that God always used evil men, and their armies, to punish Israel. Then later, sometimes much later, God punished the evil men whom he had used for his judgement. They were going to be punished for their evil, anyway. I hope that is clear.

Jesus, in a parable, made no bones about how Jerusalem was going to be punished: God would send his armies:

"The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage. But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them. But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city." (Mat 22:2-7 KJV)

The Pharisees were not too happy with that parable.

Now the destruction of Jerusalem (Babylon the Great) is found primarily in Rev 18; and history has recorded that it was destroyed, completely, by the Roman armies. The wedding takes place around Rev 19:5-10.

Another event occurs beginning in Rev 19:11. That is where the Lord's armies IN HEAVEN fight against the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies. This a heavenly army fighting against an earthly army and beings. The beast and the false prophet were not part of the battle, or so it appears, but were taken "off the battlefield" and cast into the lake of fire:

"And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone." (Rev 19:20)

The ensuing battle appears to spiritual, because the sword of the Lord proceedeth out of his mouth.

Let's summarize what just happened.

1) Babylon the Great--Jerusalem--was destroyed: no time frame given..

2) The marriage of the lamb: no time frame given.

3) The marriage supper of the lamb, which appears to be the act of fowls feasting on the dead bodies of the slain.

4) But first the beast and false prophet were thrown into the lake of fire.

5) The "REMNANT" were slain by the Lord's Word, while the fowls (buzzards, eagles?) were feasting on the corpses:

"And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh." (Rev 19:21)

Who were slain, and how? The Remnant, by His Word.

And guess what happened next? The binding of Satan and the first resurrection (Rev 20:1-6)

We'll leave it there for a while to let it digest. But first, this quote that might have something to do with the "slaying of the remnant by the sword of the Word of God:

"And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.: (Rev 14:13)

Philip

[PhilipFreneau]

>>>These comments seem unduly vitriolic and even antiSemitic, especially in the context of so many German theologians proffered to support a teaching contrary to the majority of Orthodox, Fundamentalist, and Evangelical believers. Reading about your sources I wondered how they abandoned faith for higher criticism and other error, leading to ungodly generations that plunged the world into war and Holocaust.<<<

There you go again with your attempted anti-semitic smears. Are you one of those who doesn’t believe in evangelizing the Jews? That, to me is the worst form of antisemitism. Go after them, if fighting anti-semitism is your real goal; that is, of course, if you are not one of them.

Philip

[PhilipFreneau]

>>>Resorting to the line that an opponent is calling Christ a liar is a typical losing preterist tactic.<<<

Is that why you have spent most of the day trying to smear me and others? Because you had no real defense?

Face it. What defense does a futurist have, other than, “everything is going to happen in the future;” even those things that Jesus said would occur in his generation.

Not much of a defense.

Philip

[PhilipFreneau]

>>>These comments seem unduly vitriolic and even antiSemitic<<<

I forgot to ask. Do you support the antiChristian doctrines of the non-Messianic, Orthodox Jews?

Philip

[redleghunter]

I posted Wikipedia because they give a summary of the works of your liberal theologians. Other sources were from preterist websites which list the theologian name and claim of an early date and not much more. Other than that I would have to read their books. No thank you as I received enough liberal theology attending a Jesuit University.

[redleghunter]

You say “so what?” Indeed! The so what is these liberal theologians question the authenticity of apostolic authorship of most of the NT. You have no problem with this?

[PhilipFreneau]

>>>If Isaiah 61 was literally fulfilled then when were the ruins rebuilt? When did foreigners come to tend the flocks around Zion? So of course you see this as allegory.<<<

I see most of the O.T. prophecy exactly like my ancestors saw it. I don't have a clue about most of it. And I won't pretend I do, like they did.

But a careful reading of Isaiah 61 shows that there will be "trees of righeousness" planted, and they are called "Priests" of the Lord. Recall in the Revelation that John said the Lord made him a Priest. These are the relevant verses:

"And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father;" (Rev 1:6)

"To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that he might be glorified. . . But ye shall be named the Priests of the Lord: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves." (Isa 61:3-6 KJV)

These priests can only come from the Tribes of Israel:

"For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God, and the Lord hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth." (Deu 14:2 KJV)

"But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;" (1 Pet 2:9 KJV)

Those are the CHOSEN PEOPLE: the righteous REMNANT! Where do we see those kings and priests the next time? In Revelation 20:

"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." (Rev 20:6 KJV)

That was the first resurrection. They were the firstfruits. Our resurrection: the SECOND one, comes after Satan is defeated, beginning in Revelation 20:11.

I know that is not what you want to hear, though I am not sure why.

Philip

[redleghunter]

Indeed. Praise God the archeology of the early to mid 20th century put to shame these scriptural skeptics. Sir William Ramsay put to rest the Luke skeptics. Dr. Gary has a piece on him which I am sure he will share with us.

[PhilipFreneau]

>>>You say “so what?” Indeed! The so what is these liberal theologians question the authenticity of apostolic authorship of most of the NT. You have no problem with this?<<<

I said, so what, because, SO WHAT? The list is exactly what the conversation begged: a list of those scholars who do not adhere to Domitian-era dating of the book of Revelation.

You are the one who butted into the conversation and tried to make it into something it is not. Is that not dishonesty?

You have yet to prove any of them adhered to the late date theory. That is the only issue in question, whether you like or not.

Philip

[PhilipFreneau]

>>>No thank you as I received enough liberal theology attending a Jesuit University.<<<

I am sorry you had to drudge through that university. But I have to correct you: my theology is conservative. I received my instructions in righteousness from the scriptures.

Philip

[redleghunter]

Please read chapter 19 closely. The marriage feast is not the feast of birds. One battle literal one spiritual. I see the problem. I have mountains of respect for those who see all of Revelation as allegory than this mix you present.

Again when were the Roman Armies defeated and became a feast of crows?

[af_vet_1981]

I forgot to ask. Do you support the antiChristian doctrines of the non-Messianic, Orthodox Jews?

Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

[redleghunter]

Interesting. You put forth a list of theologians which means their views and motives are open for examination. I found quite a few who are skeptics of God’s Word. That is quite important to me.

Several have presented the “this generation” issue.

I do have to applaud your effort to present preterism on its own terms but you are still heavily relying on other views as a contrast approach.

[redleghunter]

Please provide the source of your master list.

So I guess you have no issues with scholars who deny apostolic authorship of the NT? Your list has many. It matters, at least to those who respect the Bible as God’s Holy written Word.

[redleghunter]

Ok then you should know many on your list of scholars are liberal frauds. Perhaps you will be more careful in providing laundry lists from your personal independent studies. Since your studies are independent then again you researched all of the scholars?

[PhilipFreneau]

You asked about Josephus. I thought you might be interested in the following. First consider this passage from Mark:

"And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven." (Mark 13:26-27 KJV)

This is Josephus translated by William Whiston, 1737:

"Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one and twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities." [Wars of the Jews, VI.5.3]

This is from a two volume set on Josephus by a different translator, Robert Traill, 1851:

“What I am about to relate would, I conceive, be deemed a mere fable, had it not been related by eye-witnesses, and attended by calamities commensurate with such portents. Before sunset were seen around the whole country chariots poised in the air, and armed battalions speeding through the clouds and investing the cities.” (Volume II, Chapter VI, p.197.)

This is the same event described by Tacitus:

"There had happened omens and prodigies, things which that nation so addicted to superstition, but so averse to the Gods, hold it unlawful to expiate either by vows or victims. Hosts were seen to encounter in the air, refulgent arms appeared; and, by a blaze of lightning shooting suddenly from the clouds, all the Temple was illuminated. The great gates of the Temple were of themselves in an instant thrown open, and a voice more than human heard to declare, that “the Gods were going to depart.” [The Works of Tacitus, Vol 4, Book V, The Summary]

Note that according to the written estimates of his age, Tacitus would have been, at most, 14 when Jerusalem was destroyed. It is doubtful he was an eyewitness, unless he was a water boy, horse tender, or providing another service to the Roman armies. He married a senator's daughter, and later became a senator, himself; so his family may have had enough influence to allow him to tag along with the Roman armies. Alternately, he may have gotten his information from eye-witnesses.

Philip