Charismatics in Context

Ignitum Today ^ | 30 January 2014 | Matthew Olson

[matthewrobertolson]

“Certain signs point to a weakening in the sense of mystery in those very liturgical celebrations that should be fostering that sense. It is, therefore, urgent that the authentic sense of the liturgy be revived in the Church. The liturgy...is a means of sanctification; it is a celebration of the Church's faith, and a means of transmitting the faith.” - Ecclesia in Europa

To be forthright, I have always found the “Charismatic” style, whether Protestant or Catholic, repugnant. The first time I witnessed it, I instinctively recoiled: I thought, “How is this pleasing to God?”

Praise is great (CCC #2639), but the gestures, the dancing, the circuses – they disturb me. In my view, Charismatics tend to, unwittingly or not, demote to the Mass to a kind of “religious entertainment,” which Pope Benedict XVI warned against. In response to this charge, proponents of these things almost always turn to 2 Samuel 6:14. Yes, King David danced to celebrate God. But did God commend him for this behavior? No. Did this even take place in the Temple, the formal place of worship? No. The writer surely did not mean to set some kind of liturgical precedent. He, instead, meant for us to better understand the importance of thankfulness and humility. But context be damned!

Perhaps I am so bothered because I am an American. I recognize that the individualistic culture of America, which is being exported to the rest of the world, has caused the rise of excessive indulgence and a disinterest in any sort of solemnity or sacrifice. Caput is the cilice and forgotten is Friday fasting. This mentality does not bode well for evangelization efforts.

There has been little upside to the Charismatic movement. While, in and of itself, it has been supported by popes for its purported ecumenical benefits, it has caused problems.

In South America, this has all been imported. These abuses were certainly not encouraged by the Spanish settlers. These foreign additions were only incorporated to appease the masses. Do they even help the Church? I think that that question is answered by the rapid and continuing rise of Pentecostalism. The new culture of the region promotes using the Church for self-gratification, though “[t]he purpose of the liturgy of the Church is not to placate people's desires or fears” (Ecclesia in Europa). After they get their highest high, parishioners leave and look for a new dealer. As one of my Mexican friends bluntly put it, “Hispanics like to use the Church as a crutch.” Take into account the gross negligence of area bishops, and you have a recipe for spiritual disaster. When Pope Alexander VI spread the Faith to the continent, I doubt that this is what he had in mind.

In Africa, meanwhile, dancing and jubilation are historically ingrained in cultural events, so it has a different set of circumstances that make them more acceptable. On top of that, Africans deserve a lot more leeway because of their demonstrated perseverance. But even there, cardinals have had to set up barriers in response to the movement.

Liturgical relativism leads to doctrinal relativism. That is the reality. Once barely-restrained liturgy is allowed, the practitioners of said liturgy usually like to see what else they can get away with. “If you give a mouse a cookie, he's going to want a glass of milk.”

There is a place for Charismatics in the Church – I'm not a bloodhound, just mindful of liturgy – but instead of shouting the equivalent of, “Throw your hands in the air and wave 'em like you just don't care!”, perhaps the clergy and the leaders of the movement should restore a deeper respect for our Lord.

“Liturgical celebrations need once more to put Jesus at the [center], so that we can be enlightened and guided by him” (Ecclesia in Europa).

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[mbarker12474]

But then, on the other hand:

[Greetings_Puny_Humans]

“which Pope Benedict XVI warned against.”

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Which Pope Francis embraced:

“”Back at the end of the 1970s and the beginning of the 1980s, I had no time for” charismatics, the pope told reporters on the plane returning from Rio July 28. “Once, speaking about them, I said: ‘These people confuse a liturgical celebration with samba lessons!’”

“Now I regret it,” he said. “Now I think that this movement does much good for the church, overall.”

“I don’t think that the charismatic renewal movement merely prevents people from passing over to Pentecostal denominations,” Pope Francis said. “No! It is also a service to the church herself! It renews us.”

“The movements are necessary, the movements are a grace of the Spirit,” the pope added, speaking of ecclesial movements in general. “Everyone seeks his own movement, according to his own charism, where the Holy Spirit draws him or her.””

http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1303443.htm

That said, I think the Charismatic movement, whether Protestant or Papist, is dangerous.

[bramps]

Let me know when you take on the Pope who thinks Islam and Muhammed lead you to the same place that Christianity and Jesus will. This video is direct evidence of the Pope (mis)leading people right to hell.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlqgL-hAC-M#t=89
“Sharing our experience in carrying that cross, to expel the illness within our hearts, which embitters our life: it is important that you do this in your meetings. Those that are Christian, with the Bible, and those that are Muslim, with the Quran. The faith that your parents instilled in you will always help you move on.”

[sitetest]

My time when active in the Catholic charismatic renewal encouraged me toward Catholic orthodoxy. My parents were “cafeteria Catholics,” encouraged by priests and self-important laity alike. It was finding the renewal that introduced me to folks who loved God, loved the faith, and loved the Church, and wished to conform themselves to the mind of Christ as taught to us by the Church.

[Tax-chick]

Maybe someday I’ll be concerned about whether everyone else prays the way I think they should ... or maybe I’ll use that mental energy to memorize “Beowulf.”

[Jeff Chandler]

I remember when the parish I grew up in got a Charismatic pastor. I moved away from that parish, but discovered years later that the pastor was in prison. He turned out to be the worst homosexual predator in the Diocese of Los Angeles.

[Jeff Chandler]

Maybe someday I’ll be concerned about whether everyone else prays the way I think they should

That's not what this article is about at all.

We believe that the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is sacred, and do not wish to see it devolve into psychotic buffoonery.

[goodwithagun]

The Charismatics in our parish have never met a government handout they didn’t like. I’m fine with their huge families, but not at my expense.

[Iscool]

but instead of shouting the equivalent of, “Throw your hands in the air and wave 'em like you just don't care!”, perhaps the clergy and the leaders of the movement should restore a deeper respect for our Lord.

As opposed to what should be the Catholic mantra, 'we don't care what God says, we made up our own religion...'

I can't really tell if so many Catholics are so ignorant of the scriptures, or if it is willful deception...It's certainly one or the other...

Psa 134:2 Lift up your hands in the sanctuary, and bless the LORD.

[Iscool]

I remember when the parish I grew up in got a Charismatic pastor. I moved away from that parish, but discovered years later that the pastor was in prison. He turned out to be the worst homosexual predator in the Diocese of Los Angeles.

What Parish is he at now???

[Iscool]

The Charismatics in our parish have never met a government handout they didn’t like. I’m fine with their huge families, but not at my expense.

So when you give up contraception God doesn't take care of all them babies after all, eh???

[Fred Hayek]

I had attended a charismatic church early in my walk. The one thing I found disturbing was the “look at me, see how holy I am”. If they are going through the motions to impress other people, He is not impressed.

I sought the Lord
He sent a Dove

yet

I sought the Dove
It flew away.

Seek ye first.

[goodwithagun]

God takes care of all His children. What is your point, that failure to use chemicals for birth control means God doesn’t love the babies?

[Kandy Atz]

2 Samuel 6:14-16 (AMP)
14 And David danced before the Lord with all his might, clad in a linen ephod [a priest’s upper garment].
15 So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the Lord with shouting and with the sound of the trumpet.
16 As the ark of the Lord came into the City of David, Michal, Saul’s daughter [David’s wife], looked out of the window and saw King David leaping and dancing before the Lord, and she despised him in her heart.

Some people love the Lord, and others despise those that do. Nothing new under the sun.

Why don’t we just leave it to God to know what is in someone’s heart.

[matthewrobertolson]

You obviously didn't read the post.

From the article:

"In response to this charge, proponents of these things almost always turn to 2 Samuel 6:14. Yes, King David danced to celebrate God. But did God commend him for this behavior? No. Did this even take place in the Temple, the formal place of worship? No. The writer surely did not mean to set some kind of liturgical precedent. He, instead, meant for us to better understand the importance of thankfulness and humility. But context be damned!"

[Kackikat]

http://christianity.about.com/od/denominations/p/christiantoday.htm

The post is an attack on the Charismatics of the world, and God’s Word says in Scripture “the only unforgivable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit”....opposing the Holy Spirit is denying the book of ACTS and the experiences in the Upper Room. Those are as real today as they were then.

There are 269 million Pentecostals today, who are dedicated to God, and their worship is set forth in Psalms 146-150. That is how God wants to be worshipped.

DAVID was right to dance before the Lord as an act of Worship. God also said David was the ‘apple of his ey’e...why was that? He respected God’s authority, Saul, and obeyed the worship rules. Yes, he made tremendous mistakes, and always he also repented.

That does not mean other forms of worship are not valid, and each can show how he wants to worship. However Praise and Prayer are more effective than any of it. The Word say “obedience is better than sacrifice.” Jesus said those he forgave the most would love him the most....so those good people who are critical of others way of worship would be wise to keep it to themselves to avoid God’s wrath.

Scripture also says “the effectual FERVENT prayer of a righteous man avails much”. Of course all must be done in love, or it’s in vain. Charismatics are from all denominations, in fact Notre Dame had an outpouring over 50 yrs ago that started a huge revival, and added millions to the Charismatic movement for 25 yrs. Azuza Street in San Francisco was an outpouring on America not seen before at the start of the 19th century...those things do not happen without the HOLY SPIRIT reviving his Church, the church is NOT a building but those who follow him with Christ at the helm.
There is a NEW revival coming, an outpouring of the Holy Spirit that has not been seen since the day of Pentecost.

[Kandy Atz]

Actually, I did read the article. I posted the full verse for that very reason.

Its so tiresome when modern day pharisees feel the need to "correct" others. We have freedom in Christ. Some people prefer to worship in a morgue - possibly the author. Some would prefer to express their love of God more openly. Some are just obedient to the move of the Spirit. There is nothing wrong with any approach as long as God is the focus and/or the author. We are no longer under religious bondage, but SHOULD live under God's Grace. And if you look around, God likes variety.

Again, God knows what is in the heart. This line from the piece says all you need to know:

To be forthright, I have always found the “Charismatic” style, whether Protestant or Catholic, repugnant. The first time I witnessed it, I instinctively recoiled: I thought, “How is this pleasing to God?”

Whether the author finds it repugnant or not matters not. ITS NOT ABOUT HIM! That is the flaw with this diatribe. Try reading John's description of Heaven. It aint a quiet place of people sitting quietly in pews, doing their weekly penance while waiting to be dismissed in time to see the game.

Psalm 149:1-5 (AMP)

1 PRAISE THE Lord! Sing to the Lord a new song, praise Him in the assembly of His saints!

2 Let Israel rejoice in Him, their Maker; let Zion's children triumph and be joyful in their King!

3 Let them praise His name in chorus and choir and with the [single or group] dance; let them sing praises to Him with the tambourine and lyre!

4 For the Lord takes pleasure in His people; He will beautify the humble with salvation and adorn the wretched with victory.

5 Let the saints be joyful in the glory and beauty [which God confers upon them]; let them sing for joy upon their beds.

[Kackikat]

As for lifting Holy Hands unto the Lord, it is throughout the Bible, as this link gives those scriptures:

http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Bible-Verses-About-Lifting-Hands/

[Iscool]

But context be damned!

Why do you guys insist on bringing the scriptures into your religion when it condemns just about everything your religion puts out???

Psa 149:1 Praise ye the LORD. Sing unto the LORD a new song, and his praise in the congregation of saints.
Psa 149:2 Let Israel rejoice in him that made him: let the children of Zion be joyful in their King.
Psa 149:3 Let them praise his name in the dance: let them sing praises unto him with the timbrel and harp.

According to God, the Pentecostals are doing it right and your religion is doing it wrong...Catholics, search the scriptures if you want to know what God says...Don't take your religion's word for it...