According to Scripture (Sola Scriptura)

>>>Nah, your preterist views have gotten enough exposure.<<<

Are you getting defensive? All I asked from you was proof of your doctrine.

Your preterist(partial, if you will) view holds that all was finished in the year 70, and we are stuck at Revelation 20:6

You are contradicting yourself. Either all prophecy is fulfilled (the Preterist view,) or some (Rev 20:7-15) is not (the Postmillenialist and futurist view.)

I was giving you the benefit of the doubt, that you were not a full/hyper preterist, and that you are believe you are stuck somewhere in this part of prophecy Rev 20:5-7. I thought you already wrote that.

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

You have indicated you do not believe in a literal interpretation of Revelation (no 1000 year reign, etc.), except when it suits you (144,000 Jews, etc.). You also hold that there are two general resurrections and two returns of the Lord Jesus to this planet. You wrote that the first resurrection is only for Jews and occurred in 70 AD. No Gentiles were allowed in. All the Gentiles you wrote about in your posts (209) claiming there was no difference between Jew and Gentile. Yet in 70 AD you agree there was an immense difference. You write the first resurrection occurred, all the Gentiles were left behind, only the elect (Israel) were resurrected and raptured, and the elect (Israel) have been reigning in heaven with the LORD in their new bodies ever since. Somehow the number 144,000 is very literal to you here. The logical outcome of your eschatology is that the Gentiles unworthy vessels, were left without any of the benefits of Jewish leadership (most of the early believers were Jewish) as they tried to carry on the faith, and drifted into error that is only now being corrected by you and Dr. Gentry. I think this explains why you just called the Catholic Church an "old-age cult."

I think in your quest for knowledge you do err greatly. "The book" is the book of life. The resurrection in Daniel seems to parallel that in Revelation as well.

Daniel 12

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

>>>I was giving you the benefit of the doubt, that you were not a full/hyper preterist, and that you are believe you are stuck somewhere in this part of prophecy Rev 20:5-7. I thought you already wrote that.<<<

LOL! Where are you stuck in the prophecy? How many more futurist false prophets do we have to endure?

I am a postmillennialist by necessity. I don't believe anyone who reads Jesus' plain words literally, whenever possible, can be otherwise. One has to resort to allegorical or "spiritualized" interpretations to believe a full-futurist doctrine.

Postmillennialists, by definition, believe that the millennial kingdom began during or within a generation after the ministry of Christ. Preterists, on the other hand, believe all prophecy has been fulfilled. It is a fact, however, that many do not know the definition of preterist; and some know, but pretend they don't.

The reason I believe the "kingdom" began before AD70 is because Christ said it did:

"And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force." (Mat 11:12 KJV)

Other references that insist the Kingdom of God was in place during Christ's ministry:

"But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you." (Mat 12:28 KJV)

"Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel." (Mark 1:14-15 KJV)

"And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question." (Mark 12:32-34 KJV)

"And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you." (Luke 17:20-21 KJV)

"And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power." (Mark 9:1 KJV)

>>>You have indicated you do not believe in a literal interpretation of Revelation (no 1000 year reign, etc.), except when it suits you (144,000 Jews, etc.).<<<

Actually, I believe the 1000 year reign lasted about 1900 years. That is when, historically, I personally "see" Satan creeping back into the picture. The 144,000? All I know is the remnant was small. It could have been more or less. Exactly 12,000 from each tribe would be a pretty neat trick, but an unnecessary one.

>>>You also hold that there are two general resurrections and two returns of the Lord Jesus to this planet.<<<

Wrong.

>>>You wrote that the first resurrection is only for Jews and occurred in 70 AD.<<<

That is correct. Daniel said the same thing.

>>>No Gentiles were allowed in. All the Gentiles you wrote about in your posts (209) claiming there was no difference between Jew and Gentile. <<<

I never said Gentiles were not allowed in. I have implied all along they were not part of the first resurrection because of the clearly stated mission of Christ in Matthew, and the clearly stated heritage of the firstfruits in the Revelation.

>>>You write the first resurrection occurred, all the Gentiles were left behind, only the elect (Israel) were resurrected and raptured, and the elect (Israel) have been reigning in heaven with the LORD in their new bodies ever since.<<<

Spiritual bodies:

"Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption." (1 Cor 15:50 KJV)

>>>Somehow the number 144,000 is very literal to you here.<<<

Not necessarily. I did not elaborate.

>>>The logical outcome of your eschatology is that the Gentiles unworthy vessels, were left without any of the benefits of Jewish leadership (most of the early believers were Jewish) as they tried to carry on the faith, and drifted into error that is only now being corrected by you and Dr. Gentry.<<<

I cannot decipher that. Please restate. But if you were claiming my Gentile wife is a unworthy vessel, I strongly disagree! She was heaven sent.

>>>I think in your quest for knowledge you do err greatly.<<<

I think you greatly err.

>>>"The book" is the book of life. The resurrection in Daniel seems to parallel that in Revelation as well.<<<

It is: the first resurrection in Chapter 20 is the one Daniel was referring to. It happened in AD70. You posted lots of scripture with no comments, including this:

"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book." (Daniel 12:1)

Please comment on the scriptures you post so I will know what you are implying. For example, I am going to explain why Dan 12:1 doesn't fit a futurist scenario:

Whose people does Michael stand up for? Daniel's.

Who are Daniel's people? The children of Israel.

Who was written in the book or life about 70AD? We don't know, but I would guess they were mostly, if not all from the children of Israel.

To whom was Jesus sent? To the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Mat 15:24.)

Now let us look at the next verse:

"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." (Dan 12:2 KJV)

Does it say all will awake? No, its says "MANY." Therefore, there must be a second resurrection, otherwise all will not stand before Christ, as is written here: Romans 14:10. Maybe that is why Jesus called the first resurrection the "FIRST RESURRECTION."

:)

Philip

Both of you, stop making this thread "about" individual Freepers - including yourselves. That is "making it personal."

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.

"The bottom line is that the truth of the Catholic Church is rooted in history. Jesus Christ is a historical person who gave his authority to his Church to teach, govern, and sanctify in his place. His Church gave us the New Testament with the authority of Christ. Reason rejects sola scriptura as a self-refuting principle".

Your opening assertion was borne out by the series of comments on this thread as the thousands of schismatic, protesting and re-forming sects neither present a credible and consistent interpretation of the Scriptures, nor a claim to legitimacy independent of the Catholic Church (Jews and Catholics gave us the Bible; churches trace their origin to the Catholic Church from whom they rebelled; churches are newly formed sects/denominations) . I allow the exception are those fundamental Baptist churches that claim a church to church historical succession in authority and doctrine dating to the Apostles. They assert they were there in the beginning and were always legitimate. That claim was not addressed in this thread and they tend to be pre-millenial or futurist.

Msgr. Charles Pope.

“Soon + Sudden” – Since the Ascension Christ’s coming in glory has been imminent (Rev 22:20), even though “it is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has fixed by his own authority.”(Acts 1:7) This eschatological coming could be accomplished at any moment, even if both it and the final trial that will precede it are “delayed” (Mat 24:44; 1 Thes 5:2; 2 Thes 2:3-12). (CCC # 673).
Suspended - The glorious Messiah’s coming is suspended at every moment of history until his recognition by “all Israel” (Romans 11:20-26; Mat 23:39), for “a hardening has come upon part of Israel” in their “unbelief” (Romans 11:20-26) toward Jesus. St. Peter says to the Jews of Jerusalem after Pentecost: “Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, whom heaven must receive until the time for establishing all that God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets from of old. (Acts 3:19-21)” St. Paul echoes him: “For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?” (Rom 11:15) The “full inclusion” of the Jews in the Messiah’s salvation, in the wake of “the full number of the Gentiles” (Rom 11:12), will enable the People of God to achieve “the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ”, in which “God may be all in all” (Eph 4:13; 1 Cor 15:27-28) (CCC # 674)
Suffering and Sedition- Before Christ’s second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers (Luke 18:8; Mt 24:12). The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth will unveil the “mystery of iniquity” in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh. (2 Thess 2:4-12; 1 Thess 5:2-3; 1 Jn 2:18-22) (CCC # 675)
Secular Utopianism Rejected – The Antichrist’s deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism, especially the “intrinsically perverse” political form of a secular messianism. (CCC # 676)
Second Coming follows a final unleashing of evil - The Church will enter the glory of the kingdom only through this final Passover, when she will follow her Lord in his death and Resurrection. (Rev 19:1-9) The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God’s victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven. (Rev 13:1ff; Rev 20:7-9; Rev 21:2-4) God’s triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgment after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world. (CCC # 677)

I find it interesting that the antiCatholic preterist/post-millenial position believes the Virgin Mary was assumed/raptured/taken into heaven, albeit at a date that differs by several weeks from the Catholic tradition.

http://www.catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=24660

“Christ’s church “subsists in the Catholic Church, governed by the successor of Peter and the bishops in communion with him.” That phrase affirms that the “historical continuity and the permanence of all the elements instituted by Christ” are only present in the Catholic Church, the congregation said. It noted that the Orthodox faith communities are called “churches,” though separate from the Catholic Church, as they have retained apostolic succession, the ordained priesthood and the Eucharist. Because of those close bonds, the congregation said, they merit the title of churches and are seen as “sister churches” of specific Catholic churches. Yet, Christian communities “born out of the Reformation” do not share that union as they “do not enjoy apostolic succession in the sacrament of orders,” the Vatican congregation said. “These ecclesial communities which, specifically because of the absence of the sacramental priesthood, have not preserved the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic mystery cannot, according to Catholic doctrine, be called churches in the proper sense,”

>>>I find it interesting that the antiCatholic preterist/post-millenial position believes the Virgin Mary was assumed/raptured/taken into heaven...<<<

Where can I find that in the scripture?

Philip

Where can I find that in the scripture?

You found the rapture of Israel. Surely you do not imagine in your heart that the blessed Virgin of Israel, the woman the LORD chose and entrusted to bear, raise, and stand with Yeshua unto death, was left behind. Israel is incomplete without Miriam/Mary, the mother of Yeshua/Jesus who bore the Son of the Most High by Immaculate Conception through the Holy Spirit.

>>>You found the rapture of Israel. Surely you do not imagine in your heart that the blessed Virgin of Israel, the woman the LORD chose and entrusted to bear, raise, and stand with Yeshua unto death, was left behind. Israel is incomplete without Miriam/Mary, the mother of Yeshua/Jesus who bore the Son of the Most High by Immaculate Conception through the Holy Spirit.<<<

Again, where can I find that in the scripture?

Philip

Again, where can I find that in the scripture?

Where you found the rapture of Israel; it was your teaching that Israel has already been raptured.

>>>Where you found the rapture of Israel; it was your teaching that Israel has already been raptured.<<<

I didn’t say that. I said the elect has been “raptured” in the first resurrection. Big difference. I certainly never said a word about Mary, nor will I. The scripture is silent on her. Most everything people “know” about Mary has been made up out of thin air by the catholics.

The scripture is silent on her.

That is hardly the case. She is most certainly the elect of Israel.

And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, 27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. 28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. 29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. 30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. 34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. 36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren. 37 For with God nothing shall be impossible. << < = = > >> Show resourcesAdd parallel Luke 1 King James Version (KJV) 1 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us, 2 Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word; 3 It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus, 4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed. 5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. 7 And they had no child, because that Elisabeth was barren, and they both were now well stricken in years. 8 And it came to pass, that while he executed the priest's office before God in the order of his course, 9 According to the custom of the priest's office, his lot was to burn incense when he went into the temple of the Lord. 10 And the whole multitude of the people were praying without at the time of incense. 11 And there appeared unto him an angel of the Lord standing on the right side of the altar of incense. 12 And when Zacharias saw him, he was troubled, and fear fell upon him. 13 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John. 14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth. 15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb. 16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God. 17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord. 18 And Zacharias said unto the angel, Whereby shall I know this? for I am an old man, and my wife well stricken in years. 19 And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings. 20 And, behold, thou shalt be dumb, and not able to speak, until the day that these things shall be performed, because thou believest not my words, which shall be fulfilled in their season. 21 And the people waited for Zacharias, and marvelled that he tarried so long in the temple. 22 And when he came out, he could not speak unto them: and they perceived that he had seen a vision in the temple: for he beckoned unto them, and remained speechless. 23 And it came to pass, that, as soon as the days of his ministration were accomplished, he departed to his own house. 24 And after those days his wife Elisabeth conceived, and hid herself five months, saying, 25 Thus hath the Lord dealt with me in the days wherein he looked on me, to take away my reproach among men. 26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, 27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. 28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. 29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. 30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. 34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. 36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren. 37 For with God nothing shall be impossible. 38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her. 39 And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda; 40 And entered into the house of Zacharias, and saluted Elisabeth. 41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: 42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. 43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy. 45 And blessed is she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord. 46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, 47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. 49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name. 50 And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation. 51 He hath shewed strength with his arm; he hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts. 52 He hath put down the mighty from their seats, and exalted them of low degree. 53 He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away. 54 He hath helped his servant Israel, in remembrance of his mercy; 55 As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever.

>>>That is hardly the case. She is most certainly the elect of Israel.<<<

Where does it say, in the myriad of verses you posted, that Mary is part of the elect?

Philip

Where does it say, in the myriad of verses you posted, that Mary is part of the elect? Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.
And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation.
He hath shewed strength with his arm; he hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
He hath put down the mighty from their seats, and exalted them of low degree.
He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away.
He hath helped his servant Israel, in remembrance of his mercy;
As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever.

Where does it say, in the myriad of verses you posted, that Mary is part of the elect?

Please highlight the applicable part in a color different from the rest.