Posted on 01/27/2014 7:57:57 PM PST by matthewrobertolson
For Protestantism to make much sense, the Church must have, at some point, abandoned the truth and become apostate. Otherwise, Protestantism has no license to exist. But when was this "Great Apostasy"? Protestants offer varying opinions, but none of them hold up to scrutiny.
Was it right after the deaths of the Apostles?
A view most supported by Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses is that, after the Apostles, the Church quickly fell into apostasy. This would be a massive blow at both God's promise to guard His Church (Joshua 1:5; Matthew 16:18) and all of the doctrine mentioned hereafter. But if this were true, would not one of the disciples of the Apostles have spoken out? We have writings from many of them, including Pope St. Clement I, St. Barnabas, St. Polycarp, and St. Ignatius of Antioch. None of them mention a "Great Apostasy". But even if we indulge the other side and admit the possibility that even these men fell away, we still have early documents and creeds (like the Didache) that were probably formulated under the authority of the Apostles. Because Christians continued to be in accord with these extra-Biblical teachings, we know that they must have been in accord with the true Church.
Was it at the time of Constantine?
A semi-popular view is that Constantine corrupted Christianity by encouraging "pagan" elements and demanding a decision from the First Council of Nicaea. This is the view that I come into contact with most often, but it is also the most problematic. If the Church became apostate by 337 (the year of Constantine's death), then the Biblical canon – which only really started to be compiled by St. Athanasius in 367 – may be wrong: we would have no assurance of its infallibility. Also, on top of that, all later theology would be necessarily nulled.
Was it during the Middle Ages?
The possibility of an apostasy in Medieval times seems far-fetched, too. This theory revolves, primarily, around hatred for some "bad" popes. Rather than focusing on doctrinal issues, proponents of this theory typically resort to character defamation. Many attack the Crusades, which tamed a fanatic Islam, and such. But in this period, literacy rates increased, art flourished, the university system developed, laws were better-codified, and the Bible became more accessible to lay people [1, 2]. The only seemingly objectionable doctrinal development was Pope Boniface VIII's declaration, "Outside of the Church, there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins", but even this originates with St. Cyprian! The teaching relates to: 1) the fact that baptism (whether by water, blood, or desire) brings one into the Church (even if done within a Protestant community), because the sacrament was entrusted to Her and She allows anyone with the right intent to perform it, and 2) the importance of conscience and the dangers of apostasy. Nothing worthy of damnation here!
Was it just before the “Reformation”?
The idea of a “restoration” being needed just before the “Reformation” also seems improbable. This common idea is based on the "selling" of indulgences [1, 2, 3] (Martin Luther attacks the practice multiple times in his Ninety-Five Theses), but is mostly due to a misunderstanding. Again, the Protestant understanding usually relies on the assault of characters: people like Johann Tetzel are demonized -- perhaps rightfully -- for abusing the system. But this abuse was not a doctrinal problem of the Church; rather, it was a disciplinary problem of men. Indulgences simply remove the temporal punishment due for past sin -- they are not a "Get out of Hell free" card -- and even when they were "sold," they required some sort of penance. Indulgences only have a salvatory effectiveness (remittance of time in Purgatory) if the recipient is already destined for Heaven. So, it would seem that the fuss is all about nothing.
In conclusion, I see none of these options as likely.
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The phrase “founded upon” needs to be defined. Of course it is an analogical term. It doesn’t have precisely the same univocal meaning when referring to Peter as when referring to Christ. But it is clear that Peter has some kind of primacy from very early on.
Regarding Mary “hearing” the prayers of people all over the world, and the conclusion that she MUST therefore be “omnipresent.”
The manner in which Mary becomes conscious of people’s prayers is entirely mysterious to us. Of course she is not bodily present everywhere. There is no reason to suppose that she literally hears prayers with the bodily sense of hearing.
But it would be preposterous to deny that it is within God’s power to make her conscious of the prayers of people throughout the world. Eye has not seen, ear has not heard, what God has ready for those who love him.
Objections that are based on a simple-minded insistence that the conditions of life in the hereafter are precisely as they are for us can hardly be taken seriously. “How can Mary hear or pay attention to millions of prayers simultaneously” is one such. It’s like asking where Mary gets the money to pay for the variety of costumes she has worn for her apparitions in the past century.
I think most don't lie...They just follow the Pied Piper...
I think that priests spend 4 years of formal education to learn how brilliant man's mind is in the form of human philosophy, before they even get to a seminary...And they try to understand the scriptures with their own intellect instead of the spiritual understanding that only comes from God...
They are then subjected to 3 years of Catholic church history, studying what some of the church fathers taught and the Catholic catechism and of course all the rituals that must be observed...
Just a play on words...The sacrifice is finished...The atonement is completed...The price is paid, in full...The penalty for sin is complete...
Exactly. People grow in holiness, even though Jesus’ sacrifice to the Father was completed long ago.
So why does a person’s growth in holiness in Purgatory conflict in any way with the fact that Jesus’ sacrifice to the Father was completed long ago?
A little bible study will clear up your faulty Catholic education...
The is ONE mediator between man and God...That's it...One...
There are many intercessors...And they are not the same...
And Gabriel was never an intercessor or a mediator...Angels can not perform those tasks...Angels are messengers, from God...They are not messengers from you to God...
Well, that’s certainly the classical Protestant view of the intellect and reason.
LOL...
What??? Without eating the Eucharist??? Without attending Mass once a week??? Without saying the Rosary??? And the rest of that long list???
So if you get baptized before your eyes are even opened, before you even know who Mary is, you are a Christian??? You should throw that catechism away and go with just a bible...The bible is a lot easier...
Hey, list those 30,000+ denominations, would ya???
That's a very good point...But he does mention that church in chapter 17...
Can you provide the rest of us with the URL that you found your list on? You might just be the first person in FR history who could actually cough up a list.
There are thousands of Protestant denominations and their tenets differ. There are dozens of Catholic denominations (orthodox and such) but they can't hold a candle to the THOUSANDS of Protestant denominations.
While you're at it, toss the URL to those "dozens of Catholic denominations" our way, would you?
That will make a thousand millionaires...
Back then it cost the Saudis about 5 bucks a barrel to get the oil out of the ground...They were selling it at about 40 dollars a barrel...
It can't cost much more to get it out of the ground now but they won't sell it for less than 70 dollars a barrel and its been hanging around 100+ dollars per barrel...
They are robbing the world but heh, it's their oil...
Probably because there is no purgatory...It's another fabrication of your religion...
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
2Co_5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
I guess that means that Paul wasn't willing to be in purgatory (since he didn't mention it) or purgatory doesn't exist...
That's not the Catholic view as well??? How does superior intellect and man's wisdom/reason equip one to understand the scriptures???
Yes, it is and it's the ONLY resource they have.
We don't REALLY have to be do dependent on petroleum, do we?
.
.
Apparently we do.
1. Wow!
2. LOL. Good ideas! :)
Dominus vobiscum!
No he didn't...Gabriel didn't ask Mary anything...And she only acknowledged what he told her...
True, there are instances where people have “talked” to angles, but I can think of no instance in the bible where anyone prayed to Gabriel or any other angel.
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