Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

To: Salvation; Luircin
Post 79: So... you’re claiming that apostolic succession exists and that only the Roman Catholics have it... because some people who came after the Apostles said so.
And what authority do they have? Upon what are they basing this claim?
(Luircin)

Post 96: Because Christ said so. (Salvation)

Post 100: Two words: Citation Needed. (Luircin)

Post 111: Christ breathed on the Apostles giving them the Holy Spirit and saying, "Receive the Holy Spirit, whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them, whose sins you shall retain, they are retained." (Salvation)

This citation is from the DRB, which is a translation of a translation (the Vulgate), neither of which languages are precisely translating what The Holy Ghost is saying in the Koine of this passage. A more precise translation of this is found in Wittman's "The Gospels: A Precise Translation" as follows (after Jesus showed the assembled disciples his hans and side):

21 Therefore, /Jesus said to them again,
peace to you&! Accordng as The Father has sent Me, I also myself am sending you&.
22 And after saying this, He breathed* into |them to begin new life|. And he says to them,
Certainly soon receive&** Holy Spirit!
23 Whose& ever /sins you&*** ~forgive, they are being forgiven to them. Whose& ever /sins you&*** ~retain, they stand ^retained.
24 (Now Thomas, one of the& twelve, the+ one termed, Didymus, was not with them when /Jesus came.) (Jn. 20:21-24 APT)

======

Keys:

/ = articular construction (uses the definite article in the Greek)
& = plural
* = citation of Gen. 2:7, Ezek 37:9, illustrating what it means for God/Jesus to breathe on someone
| -- | = intended meaning understood
** = use of the dramatic aorist, with a future certainty meant. More fully, "Certainly soon you-all are to receive the Person titled "Holy Spirit" into your assembly.
*** = corporately
~ = subjunctive
^ = consummative perfect tense use; completed process of the action emphasized

=======

Since we know that the Person of the Holy Ghost has not yet been sent to be in their presence at this moment (see Jn. 16:7) because Jesus is still with them, and because we know that they will be without Holy Spirit guidance until ten days after Jesus leaves them (Acts 1:4-2:4); we thus know that at this point he is not imparting to them the Holy Spirit. He is breathing into their assembly (not individually) a newly created life.

He is also verbally giving them corporately and with equal voice the authority to start laying down the procedure for organizing and administrating the first local church by common agreement.

They do not individually or corporately determine what is a sin. The transmitted and written Word will do that, subsuming the oral instructions of the apostles until their deaths.

But they can forgive or retain sins of which they find themselves, as a group, the objective.

This infers no passing on of this prerogative to any other future group, and no apostolic succession.

Your intended use of the citation you gave is not logical or Scriptural. Your conferring of exceptional powers upon church rulers subsequent to these primary apostles is not valid, IMHO.

159 posted on 01/25/2014 7:02:50 PM PST by imardmd1 (Fiat Lux)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 111 | View Replies ]


To: imardmd1
the transmitted and written Word will do that, subsuming the oral instructions of the apostles until their deaths
176 posted on 01/25/2014 7:58:43 PM PST by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began,)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 159 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson