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To: BlatherNaut
I believe it would be presumptuous of me or of anyone else to claim the ability to determine who will be saved and who will be damned.

Then why pray to any saints? How do you know Mary made it? Paul? Peter? This is a seemingly very noble statement but inconsistent with the thousands of saints the Catholics have on hand.

By what standard? The New Testament differs from the Old. The teachings of Jesus differ from the teachings of Moses.

The teachings of Moses is not any different than the teachings of Jesus. Our Lord even stated this:

Moses pointed the way to Christ by pointing out our sin. All scripture is designed to point to or back to Christ.

The early fathers knew that only through our Lord Jesus was there salvation. They taught nothing else.

332 posted on 01/24/2014 4:53:42 PM PST by HarleyD (...one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved.)
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To: HarleyD
Then why pray to any saints?

I don't pray to saints. They pray for us. I know they "made it" because they were either martyred for Christ or verified miracles have occurred through their intercession.

The teachings of Moses is not any different than the teachings of Jesus.

They are less developed. For instance, in the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus develops the teachings on the Ten Commandments.

The early fathers knew that only through our Lord Jesus was there salvation.

"The following quotations from the Church Fathers give the straight story. They show that the early Church held the same position on this as the contemporary Church does—that is, while it is normatively necessary to be a Catholic to be saved (see CCC 846; Vatican II, Lumen Gentium 14), there are exceptions, and it is possible in some circumstances for people to be saved who have not been fully initiated into the Catholic Church (CCC 847). Notice that the same Fathers who declare the normative necessity of being Catholic also declare the possibility of salvation for some who are not Catholics. These can be saved by what later came to be known as "baptism of blood" or " baptism of desire" (for more on this subject, see the Fathers Know Best tract, The Necessity of Baptism). The Fathers likewise affirm the possibility of salvation for those who lived before Christ and who were not part of Israel, the Old Testament People of God. However, for those who knowingly and deliberately (that is, not out of innocent ignorance) commit the sins of heresy (rejecting divinely revealed doctrine) or schism (separating from the Catholic Church and/or joining a schismatic church), no salvation would be possible until they repented and returned to live in Catholic unity...."

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/salvation-outside-the-church

360 posted on 01/24/2014 7:43:10 PM PST by BlatherNaut
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