[BlatherNaut]

Then why pray to any saints?

I don't pray to saints. They pray for us. I know they "made it" because they were either martyred for Christ or verified miracles have occurred through their intercession.

The teachings of Moses is not any different than the teachings of Jesus.

They are less developed. For instance, in the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus develops the teachings on the Ten Commandments.

The early fathers knew that only through our Lord Jesus was there salvation.

"The following quotations from the Church Fathers give the straight story. They show that the early Church held the same position on this as the contemporary Church does—that is, while it is normatively necessary to be a Catholic to be saved (see CCC 846; Vatican II, Lumen Gentium 14), there are exceptions, and it is possible in some circumstances for people to be saved who have not been fully initiated into the Catholic Church (CCC 847). Notice that the same Fathers who declare the normative necessity of being Catholic also declare the possibility of salvation for some who are not Catholics. These can be saved by what later came to be known as "baptism of blood" or " baptism of desire" (for more on this subject, see the Fathers Know Best tract, The Necessity of Baptism). The Fathers likewise affirm the possibility of salvation for those who lived before Christ and who were not part of Israel, the Old Testament People of God. However, for those who knowingly and deliberately (that is, not out of innocent ignorance) commit the sins of heresy (rejecting divinely revealed doctrine) or schism (separating from the Catholic Church and/or joining a schismatic church), no salvation would be possible until they repented and returned to live in Catholic unity...."

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/salvation-outside-the-church

[HarleyD]

I don't pray to saints. They pray for us.

Well, that is a remarkable statement for a Catholic. No asking Mary for help? No praying the rosary?

I know they "made it" because they were either martyred for Christ or verified miracles have occurred through their intercession.

So then we do know who made it??? They talk to us from the other side through miracles??? This really gets spookier by the moment. I hope you're thinking about what you are saying.

They show that the early Church held the same position on this as the contemporary Church does—that is, while it is normatively necessary to be a Catholic to be saved (see CCC 846; Vatican II, Lumen Gentium 14), there are exceptions

While I appreciate the current Catholic Church's efforts in making Catholics believe this through their "tracks", this is not what the scriptures teaches nor is it what the early fathers believed. Please note a few of their quotes:

•Clement of Rome: "We also, being called through God's will in Christ Jesus, are not justified through ourselves, neither through our own wisdom or understanding, or piety, or works which we have done in holiness or heart, but through faith" (Epistle to Corinthians).

•Ignatius: "His cross, and his death, and his resurrection, and the faith which is through him, are my unpolluted muniments; and in these, through your prayers, I am willing to be justified (Epistle to Philadelphians). Note: "muniments" are title deeds, documents giving evidence of legal ownership of something.

•Polycarp: "I know that through grace you are saved, not of works, but by the will of God, through Jesus Christ (Epistle of Philippians).

•Justin Martyr: "No longer by the blood of goats and of sheep, or by the ashes of a heifer...are sins purged, but by faith, through the blood of Christ and his death, who died on this very account (Dialogue with Trypho). "God gave his own Son the ransom for us...for what, save his righteousness, could cover our sins. In whom was it possible that we, transgressors and ungodly as we were, could be justified, save in the Son of God alone? ...O unexpected benefit, that the transgression of many should be hidden in one righteous Person and that the righteousness of One should justify many transgressors" (Letter to Diognetus).

•Ireneus: "Through the obedience of one man who first was born from the Virgin, many should be justified and receive salvation."

•Cyprian: "If Abraham believed in God and it was imputed to him for righteousness, then each one, who believes in God and lives by faith, is found to be a righteous person."

•Athanasius: "Not by these (i.e. human efforts) but by faith, a man is justified as was Abraham."

•Basil: "This is the true and perfect glorying in God, when a man is not lifted up on account of his own righteousness, but has known himself to be wanting in true righteousness and to be justified by faith alone in Christ."

•Ambrose: "Without the works of the law, to an ungodly man, that is to say, a Gentile, believing in Christ, his "faith is imputed for righteousness" as also it was to Abraham."

What the "new" Catholic Church is teaching is the heresy Socinianism, denying the Atonement. Please note part of a discussion on Socinianism compared to what is being said by the Catholic Church.

Lastly, the Socinians rejected the propitiatory view of the atonement , the orthodox biblical doctrine stating that the sacrifice of Christ fully satisfied God’s wrath towards His people (Isaiah 53:10-11). Socinians favor what is called the “example theory” of the atonement, the theory that Christ bore the sins of His people on the cross only in the sense that His sacrifice served to incite us to abandon our sins. The Racovian Catechism, under the heading of “Refutation of the Vulgar Doctrine about the Satisfaction of Christ for Our Sins,” states, “And I affirm that he did not make satisfaction for our sins to the divine justice . . . nor was there any need that he should make satisfaction” (De Servatore, ch. 1). In this unscriptural view, Christ only became sin (2 Corinthians 5:21) and a curse (Galatians 3:13) for His people in the sense that He sacrificed Himself merely to motivate people to repent and believe. The Scriptures teach that Christ’s sacrifice was a perfect guilt offering (Isaiah 53:10) for the sins of His people through which God justified the ungodly (Romans 3:26) and guaranteed the justification of the many who would believe (Isaiah 53:11; Romans 3:30). In other words, Socinians believe Christ came not to save His people from their sins, but to make them savable, and the rest is up to them. This is nothing more than another works-based salvation theory.

If you don't believe me in saying the Catholic Church is teaching the Socinian heresy, please note what Catholic On-Line states:

More than twelve centuries before this, the same dogma [sic the atonement] was proclaimed in the words of the Nicene Creed, "who for us men and for our salvation, came down, took flesh, was made man ; and suffered. "And all that is thus taught in the decrees of the councils may be read in the pages of the New Testament. For instance, in the words of Our Lord, "even as the Son of man is not come to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give His life a redemption for many" ( Matthew 20:28 ); or of St. Paul, "Because in him, it hath well pleased the Father that all fulness should dwell; and through him to reconcile all things unto himself, making peace through the blood of his cross, both as to the things that are on earth, and the things that are in heaven." ( Colossians 1:19-20 ).

The great doctrine thus laid down in the beginning was further unfolded and brought out into clearer light by the work of the Fathers and theologians. And it may be noted that in this instance the development is chiefly due to Catholic speculation on the mystery, and not, as in the case of other doctrines, to controversy with heretics. ...

But it was not till St. Anselm and Abelard had met it with unanswerable arguments that its power was finally broken. It makes a belated appearance in the pages of Peter Lombard . ...

His example, and drew all things to Himself; it was by this [sic: His example] that He wrought our Atonement and Reconciliation with God, "making peace through the blood of His Cross".

In other word, Christ only showed us the way. This is why the Catholic Church now believes Muslims can go to heaven simply by living a good life and following the beatitudes. Because Christ showed us the way. This is nothing more than Pelagian as well as Socinianism heresy.

To sum up, for 1,200 years the Church accepted the atonement. This is documented not only in the writings of the early fathers but also in the Nicene Creed and many other writings of the Church. But then, all of a sudden it became clear as to what was REALLY being talked about. Hey, Christ didn't have to die for our sins but He just redeemed mankind from their sins. The rest is up to them.

This is nothing more than Socinianism and a denial of Christ's atonement for our sin. This was laid down by the fathers, embedded in Creeds, and changed twelve centuries later as admitted by the Church. And, it should be noted, the Catholics are rather nervous because they try to defend themselves against this charge in their write up. But you can't change a leopard's spots.

This is a damnable (literally) lie.