Sometimes Gary Larson gets it right with some groups of people.
Posted on 01/05/2014 1:56:06 PM PST by Steelfish
The Early Christians Believed in the Real Presence
"So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter." (2 Thes. 2:15)
"And what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also." (2 Tim. 2:2)
INTRODUCTION
Many Catholics and non-Catholics alike think that the Roman Catholic Church invented the doctrine of transubstantiation. Transubstantiation means that the bread and wine presented on the altar at the Mass become the the Body and Blood of Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit at the consecration.
The consecration is the time when the priest calls upon the Holy Spirit to change the bread and wine into Christ's Body and Blood. However, the Body and Blood retain the appearance of bread and wine. The Roman Catholic Church, that is, the Latin Rite Catholic Church, and other Catholic Churches in communion with Rome believe that the Eucharist is the Real Presence of Jesus Christ, body, blood, soul and divinity. The Orthodox Churches and most other Churches of the East do so as well.
Anglican [Episcopalian] and other Protestant denominations have interpreted Christ's presence at the celebration of the Lord's Supper or Eucharist to be either only spiritual, or symbolic, or non-existent.
The Early Christians actually took the Real Presence for granted. It doesn't even seem as if there was much debate. I could not find anyone who denied the Real Presence of Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament before the year 500 A.D. Following are the results of my search.
(Excerpt) Read more at therealpresence.org ...
I have no doubt there are far more faithful izlamaniacs than there are faithful Catholics...
Time for you to answer questions rather than avoid issues.And you infer I'm insolent? Why? What is wrong with questions? I've only asked a few. How miserable were you as a Catholic, that this is how far you've come to be "pleased"? In all due respect, you don't sound very happy. At least you don't come across so on paper.
Wow, you must have had long winded priests. RC church I grew up on a Fr. Foley could get an entire mass done in 29:45 flat. He was called the "firemen priest." I thought that meant he was a fire house chaplain, but found out he got that nickname because he conducted mass as if he had a fire to get to:)
Insolent, yes, as in avoiding a issue, in response to my critique of RC priests and mass, by asking a question as if you were sincere and did not know, and meant to engage the issue. But then once again you ignored my answer by resorting to an ad hominem attack.
And which is a continuation of your refusal to actually engage the problems with your arguments by assertions, as in "Catholicism is a fascinating, fulfilling, and flawless faith.
As for sincere meaning-ful questions in actually engaging the issue, there is nothing wrong with them, and in fact i keep asking RCs such in engaging the issue, but none of them will answer them, due to the implications. Would you like to try?
How miserable were you as a Catholic, that this is how far you've come to be "pleased"? In all due respect, you don't sound very happy.
This again is avoiding the problems of your church in the light of Scripture, by resorting to ad hominem attacks as a response to a doctrinal issue and your tactics.
As for being happy, i am know as quite cheerful, outgoing, etc., but esteem for Scriptural truth means i do not suffer the promotion of deception gladly, or the manner of cultic devotion to Rome you example, however gladly.
And that was evidently a Sunday mass, as homilies are not required for daily Masses, though strongly recommended, while in the NT church, pastors, not "priests," were charged to "preach the word," not serve physical food, which they actually are never shown doing.
And when so many RC pseudo pastors preach, it would be better off they stayed silent. They often preach errors of Rome, or even some errors even RCs object to, as here: http://wdtprs.com/blog/2013/07/quaeritur-walking-out-of-church-because-of-the-sermon/
This is unadulterated nonsense. We are not talking about “personal” sin. We were discussing Catholic teaching.
No one here is accusing you of being a sinner anymore that we claim personal righteousness.
This thread is about ONE truth based on the four pillars of scripture, tradition, revelation, and faith. Anything else, we have the scandal of serpent based religions in Kentucky claiming to be based on Scripture. Do you want the Anabaptists to instruct Scripture to those living in outer Mongolia? Or about Mormons taking their view of Scripture to Uruguay? This is why the Christ commanded the “Great Commission” specifically to Peter and his apostles and their successor and hence the authoritative structure of the Church.
Hence, it were the early Church Fathers who “organizationally” decided on which books to include in Scripture. This itself was a profound manifestation of the Holy Spirit working in God’s Church. Think about it? The Church deciding what Books constituted the Holy Bible. (These books did not fall from the sky).
No institution has been so assiduously examined and researched for its beliefs and authenticity than the Catholic Church down through more than 2000 years. Tis explains the long list of ranking theologians of other faiths who converted to Catholicism.
The sheer stupidity of low-information Christians who are unable to grasp the profound works of St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas; Cardinal Henry Newman; and Benedict XVI allow them to quote random scriptural versions, no more than the Jim Jones’ and David Koreshs’, Joel Osteens; Rick Warrens, clowns like Bishop TD Jakes;, Rev. Wrights; and the Billy Grahams’ and the snake worshipping “Christian” sects in Appalachia. What’s common to all of them? They deny the Holy Eucharist. This is huge and makes the heresy all the more revolting.
So here’s how the rot of Protestantism begins.
Get yourself a empty garage, convert it into a nice inviting building put some shrubbery, and plant a cross. Make sure you can speak reasonably well.
Now, throw a lectern and some pews into the building, get some good feel good-music, make sure you don’t offend the prospective congregants, read Scripture, wave the Bible in the air, get yourself a spiffy outfit, do a small gig, and shout out verses, and oh, don’t forget the coffee and doughnuts after what passes off for “Sunday Services” and viola, we have yet another brand of the Protestant faith.
This is the sad spectacle we have today but it shows the unfortunate decay and rot caused by Luther, Calvin, Wesley, and the rest of the heretics, now numbering over 35,000 Protestant denominations.
So go tell this to the folks in China’s Sichuan province and have them choose what flavor of Scriptural meringue and forms of worship suits them best. And of course, all in God’s holy name!
Very good, but it’s spelled , “voila”! (One boss I had spelled it “wolla”, and I couldn’t convince him otherwise!)
And I don’t want to trivialize what you said, because I agree with all of it.
Amen. Best post of the day.
A careful reading of Matthew 15 (what defiles a man) and John 4 (Samaritan woman at the well - God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth), would also be helpful.
And BELIEVE this powerful Truth that is also applicable:
Hebrews 10:10-23 (AMP)
10 And in accordance with this will [of God], we have been made holy (consecrated and sanctified) through the offering made once for all of the body of Jesus Christ (the Anointed One).
11 Furthermore, every [human] priest stands [at his altar of service] ministering daily, offering the same sacrifices over and over again, which never are able to strip [from every side of us] the sins [that envelop us] and take them away—
12 Whereas this One [Christ], after He had offered a single sacrifice for our sins [that shall avail] for all time, sat down at the right hand of God,
13 Then to wait until His enemies should be made a stool beneath His feet.
14 For by a single offering He has forever completely cleansed and perfected those who are consecrated and made holy.
15 And also the Holy Spirit adds His testimony to us [in confirmation of this]. For having said,
16 This is the agreement (testament, covenant) that I will set up and conclude with them after those days, says the Lord: I will imprint My laws upon their hearts, and I will inscribe them on their minds (on their inmost thoughts and understanding),
17 He then goes on to say, And their sins and their lawbreaking I will remember no more.
18 Now where there is absolute remission (forgiveness and cancellation of the penalty) of these [sins and lawbreaking], there is no longer any offering made to atone for sin.
19 Therefore, brethren, since we have full freedom and confidence to enter into the [Holy of] Holies [by the power and virtue] in the blood of Jesus, 20 By this fresh (new) and living way which He initiated and dedicated and opened for us through the separating curtain (veil of the Holy of Holies), that is, through His flesh,
21 And since we have [such] a great and wonderful and noble Priest [Who rules] over the house of God,
22 Let us all come forward and draw near with true (honest and sincere) hearts in unqualified assurance and absolute conviction engendered by faith (by that leaning of the entire human personality on God in absolute trust and confidence in His power, wisdom, and goodness), having our hearts sprinkled and purified from a guilty (evil) conscience and our bodies cleansed with pure water.
23 So let us seize and hold fast and retain without wavering the hope we cherish and confess and our acknowledgement of it, for He Who promised is reliable (sure) and faithful to His word.
Your post reminded me of the documentary film and the preacher named “Marjoe”, who betrayed the tent show/store front racket, way back in the 1970s, a preacher since childhood, like presumably Franklin Graham today. Needless to say, the film was denounced as anti-Christian propaganda.
It also reminded me of street corner preachers who’d visit the university campus nearby waving their Bibles, condemning the students to hell, and in return be subjected to constant mocking and ridicule, but returning there day after day, and converting no one. And when some students or local hippies engaged them in debates, they, the hippies, would make more sense than these holy men, which isn’t much different from the debates here where one side can only cut and paste long excerpts from the Scripture and disregard the 2,000 years or meditation and theology, and spit on Joseph Ratzinger and his life’s work, as if he were some high school kid promoting a science fiction novel he wrote.
Christians are telling the folks in China, and S. Korea and all over S. and C. America and Africa folks are leaving your intellectual religion in droves to these places that preach Jesus and are accepting him as their Savior...
The sheer stupidity of low-information Christians who are unable to grasp the profound works of St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas; Cardinal Henry Newman; and Benedict XVI
I have yet to find any thing by these guys that is profound...But then my God is not philosophy...I have found tho that they have lots of opinions that are unbiblical...
They deny the Holy Eucharist. This is huge and makes the heresy all the more revolting.
I'll wear that badge, proudly...I have never eaten a wafer and pretended it was Jesus, and never will...
and disregard the 2,000 years or meditation and theology (better known as human philosophy)...
I don't disagree with that...
And when some students or local hippies engaged them in debates, they, the hippies, would make more sense than these holy men, which isn’t much different from the debates here
Hippies generally do make more sense to the world, the unsaved than bible Christians do...
You old hippies are what we and Jesus are up against...
Sometimes Gary Larson gets it right with some groups of people.
To think that brainiac Cephas was a fishermen.
Speaking of tradition...When do you think Peter thought it most appropriate to wear the red shoes of the papacy?
The bible has very little to do with the RCC.
Augustine is not in my bible.
John’s Gospel does not contain many of the things recorded in the Synoptics, including the Sermon on the Mount, the Transfiguration, the virgin birth, the Great Commission, and the Ascension. In fact, the only miracle outside of the Resurrection that appears in both the Synoptic gospels and John’s gospel is the feeding of the 5,000.
This doesn’t mean that John considered these things as unimportant at all. If John were, in fact, written much later than the other gospels, then perhaps John did not feel the need to replicate material that was already well established.
John writes for a very specific purpose, asserting that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing we may have life in His name. (John 20:30-31) So, the material he selects is done so for the purpose of supporting that premise. All the miracles and all the teachings center around that premise. The Eucharist appears to have not fit into that selection criteria for him, since it doesn’t appear in the book.
And lastly, remember John 21:25.
“Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written”
“Your ancestors ate the manna in the desert, but they died;
this is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat it and not die.
I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.”
The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?”
Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.
For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.
Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.
This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever.”
These things he said while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum
Then many of his disciples who were listening said, “This saying is hard; who can accept it?”
Since Jesus knew that his disciples were murmuring about this, he said to them, “Does this shock you?
What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?
It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
But there are some of you who do not believe.” Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him.
And he said, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father.”
As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him
Jesus then said to the Twelve, “Do you also want to leave?”
Simon Peter answered him, “Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
We have come to believe and are convinced that you are the Holy One of God.”
Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you twelve? Yet is not one of you a devil?”
He was referring to Judas, son of Simon the Iscariot; it was he who would betray him, one of the Twelve.” [John 6: 49-71]
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