Posted on 12/30/2013 9:35:20 AM PST by RnMomof7
......"The U.S. Religious Landscape Survey by the Pew Research Center’s Forum on Religion & Public Life has put hard numbers on the anecdotal evidence: One out of every 10 Americans is an ex-Catholic. If they were a separate denomination, they would be the third-largest denomination in the United States, after Catholics and Baptists. One of three people who were raised Catholic no longer identifies as Catholic.........
"Thankfully, although the U.S. bishops have not supported research on people who have left the church, the Pew Center has.
Pew’s data shows that those leaving the church are not homogenous. They can be divided into two major groups: those who become unaffiliated and those who become Protestant. Almost half of those leaving the church become unaffiliated and almost half become Protestant. Only about 10 percent of ex-Catholics join non-Christian religions.
This article will focus on Catholics who have become Protestant. I am not saying that those who become unaffiliated are not important; I am leaving that discussion to another time."................
"Nor are the people becoming Protestants lazy or lax Christians. In fact, they attend worship services at a higher rate than those who remain Catholic. While 42 percent of Catholics who stay attend services weekly, 63 percent of Catholics who become Protestants go to church every week. That is a 21 percentage-point difference.
" Seventy-one percent say their faith is “very strong,” while only 35 percent and 22 percent reported that their faith was very strong when they were children and teenagers, respectively. On the other hand, only 46 percent of those who are still Catholic report their faith as “very strong” today as an adult.
(Excerpt) Read more at ncronline.org ...
Is evidently your church
The Church is the body of Christ, with Christ as its head. The rest of your post is, as usual, (delusional) nonsense.
Then it must include the baptized Prots who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal, and are united with Christ within their own Churches or ecclesiastical [Protestant] communities.
And which contradicts your fellow RC. and his usual delusional nonsense.
Any person that turned their back on Jesus Christ in the Eucharist. Turned their back on the sacraments, and thinks “me and Jesus got a good thing going, I don’t need no stinkin’ church to me what’s it’s all about”, is the delusional one.
Protestants come into the Catholic Church after careful study and contemplation. They feel God calling them home to the fullness of the faith. People that leave the Catholic Church, for any protestant denomination, were never devoted to the Catholic faith to start with and most leave the Catholic Church because they don’t like the all the moral conditions the Catholic Church placees on people. It is not easy being a Catholic. 2,000 years ago Jesus said if he was despised his followers would also be despised. He said if they hate you they hated Him first.
Catholicism is not for sissies. It takes a devoted man or woman to be a devout Catholic and some people just don’t have what it takes. They want to live their way and not God’s way. How many times have I heard a lapsed Catholic say “no church is going toe me what to do”. Hundreds. As in all fallen away Catholics. Different day,same story.
I'll give you that one.
Problem is, Jesus said..... Matthew 11:28-30 Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”
So the admission that Catholicism isn't easy is an admission that Catholicism isn't about Jesus.
Your attempts to even argue for Rome continue to be an argument against being a RC due to what RCs such as you example it effects! Blind zeal.
You make spurious assertion after assertion, presuming the very thing that needs to be proved, as well as resorting to invalid comparisons and misrepresentations.
You broadly deny Protestants as being part of the body of Christ, and that they have sacraments, yet your own liberal church affirms they do, being baptized, including those in "ecclesial communities," which is code for evangelical types "who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal," (LUMEN GENTIUM)
You attempt to compare Rome with all that is placed under the category called "Protestants," based upon division from Rome, which is meaningless, as it even includes cults which deny historical Prot truths, while the model Rome operates under, sola ecclesia, is what such operate under as well. Rome is just one more asserting she is right under the cultic premise of assured veracity.
You also attempt to counter conservative evangelicals by invoking Episcopal types, who are actually closer to Rome and which evangelicals oppose. And which also can be substantiated.
And going further, here you describe Prots as "i don’t need no stinkin’ church," which is such an absurd misrepresentation that it would be laughable if not so grievous, as Prots exist in churches, and the type of Prots (fundamental evangelicals) you are manifestly dealing with here testify to far more commitment to Christ than RCs overall.
People that leave the Catholic Church, for any protestant denomination, were never devoted to the Catholic faith to start with
Which is simply another of your absurd assertions that presume what is not substantiated, and cannot be, but is a vain assumption. I for one was very committed, as were others, and the substantiation shows others were. But your arguments are like that of a bigot for Rome that is devoted to his own contrived conclusion!
because they don’t like the all the moral conditions the Catholic Church places on people.
Which is just contrary to what surveys tells us about RC converts to Protestantism, in which only 15% say they left because they stopped believing in its teachings, while the majority cited a lack of spiritual fulfillment as a reason for leaving. ( http://pewforum.org/uploadedfiles/Topics/Religious_Affiliation/fullreport.pdf)
In addition, it is Catholics that are on a par or worse than the general public in moral views, and Catholics and even weekly ones are overall less conservative in their moral views than evangelicals overall, as is substantiated .
It is not easy being a Catholic...Catholicism is not for sissies. It takes a devoted man or woman to be a devout Catholic..
That is also simply absurd and your own imagination as you do not need to be devout top be a Catholic, as Rome treats even notorious impenitent public sinners as members in life and in death, as can be proved! Tt remains you simply have no real argument, and once again your bigoted assertions serve to provide evidence against Rome. Keep it up or give it up, its up to you.
Again, you are reading too much in to what I actually said. I am speaking entirely from experience. I am not guessing at the motives of particular people for leaving the Catholic Church; I know this from talking to them and hearing what they have to say and seeing how they’ve lived and what they now do. That is called experiential knowledge. I said very clearly that this comes from my limited experience. If I were to make generalizations about all people that leave the Catholic Church to become Protestant, you would have grounds for objection. But I did not, and my personal experience stands on its own merits.
Yep. Baptized Prots are baptized into the One True Church, the Catholic Church. They may not know it or agree with it or accept it, but if their baptism is valid (Triune with water) then they are members, not formal members, but members nonetheless of Christ's Church.
No one has figured out how they can be restored to a state of sanctifying grace once they've lost it status post sacramental baptism via mortal sin without the means of the forgiveness Christ established so they are in a deficient situation vis-à-vis their Catholic brethren, but its a start at least.
So you call Christ a liar? He was the one that said following him would not be easy. The Christians he was talking to were Catholic, the Christians that never abandoned him to worship at the alter of Martin Luther. You give up the Eucharist you are denying Christ. The gospels are explicit.
That refers to the OTC in a universal sense, as in particular both RCs and EOs state they are the one true expression of that church, and to hold that Baptized Prots are baptized into the One True Church, the Catholic Church must mean informally. Yet your interpretation is one among others which have been expressed by RCs in seeking to reconcile Lumen Gentium with past statements which excluded all who are not in submission to the pope and in the bosom of the RCC. One said Prots must be converted before death, recanting Prot "heresies. Others interpret CCC 846 as excluding former RCs who "know" that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ," but refuse to remain in it, as referring to formal membership, though i certain do not "know" Rome or the EO is that OTC, but know they claim to be so, but are not. .
Catechesis is nothing other than the process of satan transmitting his deception. As his pawns have received it, understands it, celebrates it, lives it and communicates it in many ways. And so is the Book of Mormons and the Koran - they are his other flavors to rein in the clueless/easily deceived. There are many ways to satan and his kingdom...man with their teachings.
But only one Way to Jesus The Savior...HIS Holy Spirit inspired WORD which is spiritually discerned and brings fellowship with GOD which Christianity is all about.
Check out: Hillaire Belloc
Typical Catholicism...read about 'man and their thoughts' to cement deception and catholics obey! Clueless to the core as was their 'religious leader' who professed... 'I'm all yours, Mary' found out along with 'their history' of religious leaders - pawns of satan to keep deception going.
God's Word IS The FINAL Authority.
Was that a homework assignment that makes a catholic feel better in the lie that is ‘the catholic religious organization’ is some kind of true church? Lots of work being done for the counterfeit, IMO.
Vitriol is no substitute for intellectual inquiry. Yup, all those saints, and Protestant theologians who converted to Catholcisim were all deceived by satan. Such is the drivel of low-information Christians who flock to megachurches inhabited by the likes of Joel Osteens, Re. Schullers etc, who crack open the pages of Scripture, give it their own interpretation accompanied by a sing-a-long and they have found “it” just like the Mormons and Scientologists. You get the drift.
TRUTH is vitriol to those who God'S Word is NOT their final authority as they embrace 'man's word' and bow at the altar of deception/'man made teachings' catholicsm, mormonism, islam.
Not surprised you are looking for 'intellectual' inquiry. Catholicsm produces 'worldly' creatures....satan's easily deceived. When speaking about JESUS it is ALL about SPIRITUAL and HIS WORD is SPIRITUALLY discerned. It's no wonder catholics and mormons are so mislead....they have no idea what to 'look for'.
give it their own interpretation accompanied by a sing-a-long and they have found “it”
Catholics, Mormons, Muslims have NO IDEA what they found - its easier to mock than believe which takes squashing their PRIDE. Those who refuse to believe The HOLY SPIRIT is The Teacher is easy fodder for 'man' to deceive them. Their choice and they own it as they embrace deception from man.
You get the drift.
Wrong..I didn't get the drift ... I GOT THE TRUTH. Catholics got the dribble.
God's WORD IS THE FINAL Authority.
You logic is circular. God’s word is the final authority. True. But He gave this authority to teach His truth only to Peter and his apostles. “Whatsoever thou shall bound on earth shall be bond in Heaven.” This is what the early Church fathers accepted, believed, and practice as an unbroken line of succession to Peter- the early Popes and saints.
Of course all this goes over the heads of low-information Christain Protestants who think their local Foursquare Church Paster gets it right. The Mormons and Jehovah’s witness thought so too. As did Tammy Faye Baker, Jimmy Swaggart; David Koresh, Jim Jones, Rev. Jeremiah Wright; Rev. Sharpton; Rev. Moon; and the rest of the wild mushrooms that have sprung around the great Mustard Tree. Many of these denominations have had evolving doctrine, and broken apart into dozens of different sects. This is why no serious theological scholar holds onto any single Protestant denomination.
Easy to establish a Protestant faith? Get your self some good speaking lessons; throw some rock’n background music, even better get yourself a pretty wife, don’t say anything to upset your congregation, plant a cross in the front yard, surround it with some inviting foliage, and have vapid and meaningless ‘Sunday Services” by shouting out verses from Scripture, and viola, we have a new Protestant religion.
Of course it is TRUE. God's Word is the ONLY TRUTH there is. Throw away the catechism if you believe it's true; otherwise, your 'true' response means NOTHING and is only dribble.
But He gave this authority to teach His truth only to Peter and his apostles.
FALSE!! That's what Rome taught before God's Word was snatched from them. NOW everyone of us is responsible for learning HIS TRUTH and HE equipped those who WANT TO KNOW His Truth with The Holy Spirit. God is a personal God and each one is personally responsible for themselves. Paul is the one HE revealed His mystery to and Paul wrote over 1/2 of the NT. That should bring some light to the darkness of catholicism. God has appointed Holy Spirit filled teachers who teach HIS WORD ALONE. His HS filled believers know TRUTH when they hear it and know deception before it turns the corner. They are well-equipped as only God equips His own.
This is what the early Church fathers accepted, believed, and practice as an unbroken line of succession to Peter- the early Popes and saints.
I left that 'counterfeit teachings' in the mud from which it came - it's Rome's dribble to deceive those who can be deceived. Show where God gave anyone 'the counterfeit teachings of man', the catechism for one, to teach. And please don't use popes as anything credible! What's wrong, suddenly history of 'Rome's incorrigible 'religious' leaders is something not to believe? Only the worse of the worst made the hit parade. What about the 'I'm all yours, Mary' one. Man giving himself over to man. That didn't end well. He had no Savior as he gave himself to Mary and Mary cannot save. There is only ONE Savior and that is Jesus. Basic Christianity and he didn't even get that right. Worldly teaching got to him - his choice. And what did Rome do?...they dug him up to honor him - honor 'man' as it is 'their way'. He must have been one of their best...as he didn't know basic Christianity but practiced idolatry - 'The catholic mascot'. Satan really is a trip - he's having fun at the cost of souls for eternity. Yet, the deceived continue to embrace his teachings. Their elevator is obviously stuck on stupid and no 'light' goes on.
Of course all this goes over the heads of low-information Christain Protestants who think their local Foursquare Church Paster gets it right
Low information, again? Slow learner comes to mind in that response. The ONLY ONE who has it right is JESUS The Word and He shared His Word as His own gave up their life for His will/His Word to be spread world wide. And that still grates Rome! They didn't take His Word seriously when He said 'the gates of hell will not prevail against HIS CHURCH'. Shame on them as they refused correction and then went on to produce "their word", the catechism. Not taking Patient GOD seriously will produce His Wrath eventually as HIS age of Grace closes soon. HIS WORD IS FINAL - He has the First Word and the Last! Satan and his 'man made teachings' are such a loser, yet....
This is why no serious theological scholar holds onto any single Protestant denomination.
Theological Scholar! And totally without The Spirit. A dime a dozen. Save the RCC WORLDLY concept of things - they are corrupt to the core when it comes to the things of God!
Easy to establish a Protestant faith? Get your self some good speaking lessons; throw some rock’n background music, even better get yourself a pretty wife, don’t say anything to upset your congregation, plant a cross in the front yard, surround it with some inviting foliage, and have vapid and meaningless ‘Sunday Services” by shouting out verses from Scripture, and viola, we have a new Protestant religion.
Sounds catholic to me minus the wife (as some prefer boys) as the catholic church produces worldly-minded creatures and it shows. Like I said before - catholics have been so deceived they have no idea what to look for in a church. Where's the incense, the fine linen and Jesus nailed to The Cross, the confession booth and a statue of Mary and 'saints' and holy water and beads to keep us on track? - this can't be a true church. They only know what they are taught by man. Lest catholics feel left out, Mormons and muslims are in the same boat. Satan doesn't care what unbelievers call themselves or gimmicks they use to appear holy - as long as he has their soul. Now Truth evades them - they don't even recognize It when it's presented to them. Being easy prey comes at a very high price for eternity.
Psst! I got info for you - Jesus has nothing to do with 'religion' it's all about a relationship. So much for 'low information' - catholics apparently were served the whole cake! All they do is compare 'religions' as they fight for some credence. They have a long haul before they come out of the hole they dug themselves and the time is short - so not much hope left - while satan does his 'I got them dance'. BTW, there is no purgatory but there is fire and it's hell where 'man made teachings' end up as everything NOT of God is burned up - except man because the spirit lives forever with WHO they choose to believe and obey here. No one can serve two masters.
'Man made teachings' originated for the sole purpose to deceive. That's all satan has is deception. Learning of his deception in Genesis is each one's responsibility - and catholics, mormons and muslims left their learning up to man. Imagine that - man leaving their eternal destiny up to 'man'. One could say they deserve what they get if it were not so FINAL.
Since you brought up scholarship and that is what appears you seek, Daniel1212 has instructed here many many times and he is to be commended for his Biblical teachings and PATIENCE with the unlearned. How much of it did you absorb or even care to absorb as the clock ticks away? No need to answer, it's just me thinking out loud about the grace of God.
God's WORD IS THE FINAL Authority and HIS SPIRIT is The Teacher.
Amen.
As I plough through these threads and hear the same thing over and over and over again I always (at first)think,Daniel,you're wasting your time FRiend, but I'm quickly reminded that no he is not! No doubt many lurkers read these threads as well and I can't help wondering how many RCs actually know half of this stuff? So I'm thankfull for those posters who turn up day in and day out to present the truth to those who seek it.
"God's WORD IS THE FINAL Authority and HIS SPIRIT is The Teacher"
Amen to that!
1.1 Corinthians 14:12 "Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church"
Thank God for those willing to speak the truth.
I've thought the same many times. He is so thorough and in depth with his knowledge and explanation and his patience to the grumpy unlearned astounds me. To God be the glory.
Actually, Scripture is the assured word of God, being wholly inspired by Him, but it is NOT the supreme or final authority for an RC, leaving the RC logic to be circular. Thus RCs stedfastly refused to answer the questions such as i asked of you as well. Again:
What is the basis (Scripture, etc.) for your full assurance that Rome is the One True Church?
Does having historical descent, and being the steward of Scripture, and the magisterium over God's people, require or render such infallible? Or are otherwise authoritative so that no one it rejects have no valid authority?
Is an infallible magisterium necessary to determine and establish writings as being Scripture, and what truth is, and preserve it?
But He gave this authority to teach His truth only to Peter and his apostles. “Whatsoever thou shall bound on earth shall be bond in Heaven...
Its "bind" on earth, bound in Heaven, but what this means, in the light of the rest of Scripture (which does not support what Rome extrapolates from it for themselves), is a matter of interpretation. And the reason you believe it to be Rome cannot be because this is what an objective examination of Scripture leads to, as this is not supposed to be the RCs basis for determining Truth. Thus your answer to question #1 must be dealt with.
This is what the early Church fathers accepted,
That the rock of My. 16:18 was Peter, and that he reigned supreme over all the NT church to whom they look to as its infallible head, or even in Rome, is not what either Scripture teaches or what all the post apostolic early (so-called) Church fathers testified to. Even RC scholarship substantiates otherwise. As shown in this FR post. Stop parroting uninformed RC assertions as arguments.
Of course all this goes over the heads of low-information Christain Protestants
Actually, it is RC posters as you, which make up the majority, that testify they are low-information RCs, blissfully unaware of what refutes them, but parrot each other.
The Mormons and Jehovah’s witness thought so too.
And which operates under the same premise of Rome, that of the sola ecclesia model, in which the church is effectively or formally held to be assuredly correct in its interpretation of Scripture, Tradition, and history.
Rome itself has presumed to infallibly declare she is and will be perpetually infallible whenever she speaks in accordance with her infallibly defined (scope and subject-based) formula, which renders her declaration that she is infallible, to be infallible, as well as all else she accordingly declares. Talk about circularity.
As did Tammy Faye Baker, Jimmy Swaggart; David Koresh, Jim Jones, Rev. Jeremiah Wright; Rev. Sharpton; Rev. Moon;
And how could these, as well as cults who dent core truths we both concur on, as well as liberal revisionism, be censored by historical evangelicalism, which was a reaction against such, if they were not unified in core salvific truths, despite things they disagree on?
Meanwhile, if sola ecclesia is the answer, then why do we see divisions btwn those who operate under it, including the EOs and Rome, with their substantial disagreements, despite being unified in core salvific truths?
What apparently goes over RC heads is that there own model for assuredly determining Truth invalidates the church itself.
Many of these denominations have had evolving doctrine
Oh, and Rome does not, even if under the guise of "reformulation" and interpretation? Tell me how any Trinitarian baptized Prot., esp. conservative evangelical converts from Rome, can be considered to be part of the church when it is also taught that,
“We declare, say, define, and pronounce [ex cathedra] that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” — Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam (Promulgated November 18, 1302) http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/b8-unam.html
"alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative Magisterium." - Satis Cognitum (# 9): June 29, 1896: http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_29061896_satis-cognitum_en.html
...schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life but will depart `into everlasting fire...no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.” — Pope Eugene IV and the Council of Florence (Seventeenth Ecumenical Council), Cantate Domino, Bull promulgated on February 4, 1441 (Florentine style)
Then you have submission to the pope in past centuries requiring carrying out papal sanction of torture and killing (murder) of theological dissenters, even like myself, while in a another century (having lost her unBiblical use of the sword of men), such is considered evil.
And there are other examples .
This is why no serious theological scholar holds onto any single Protestant denomination.
I hope not, as it would be cultic to consider any single Protestant denomination as constituting the one true church, as in Scripture this refers to the household of God, or faith, which Christ is married to, (Eph. 2:19; 5:25-32; Gal., 6:10) the universal body of Christ, into which the Spirit baptized believers in conversion. (1Cor. 12:13)
Easy to establish a Protestant faith?
Of course it is easy as your definition of of what constitutes "Protestant" is based on not being in communion with Rome and thus even includes cults, but which operate under the model of Rome. And what you describe is that of a Joel Osteen type church, which is censured by those of the type of faith which you contend with here. Moreover, as told you before, a valid comparison is not btwn one particular church versus a broad spectrum of churches, but btwn the basis for each.
The fact is that it is easy to establish a sola ecclesia church as well. The question is, if the Roman model is correct, then how could souls be right, and have assurance of faith, in following a holy reformer in the desert who ate insects, and an itinerant preacher when both of them were rejected by those who sat in the seat of Moses? But which Preacher established His claims upon Scriptural substantiation in word and in power.
Which the gospel of Rome is not, and its overall fruit has been that of a institutionalized church which has produced a past and present populace which is manifestly spiritually dead, or a few with blind zeal, and which have no fellowship of the Spirit, resulting from a shared personal conversion to the risen Lord Jesus and Christ-centered relationship, and which transcends external tribalism.
And the grace to do so.
Indeed!
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.