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Christianity 101: The Laying on of Hands
Today | Douglaskc

Posted on 12/22/2013 3:01:31 PM PST by DouglasKC

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To: DouglasKC; Greetings_Puny_Humans

Doug I may have asked this before. How do you trace apostolic authority for the laying of hands to receive the Holy Spirit? I know you said any believer can do it, but that would require, excuse the term, believer “zero” to get the ball running in your church. Is there a tradition in your church dating back to when? Is it your view there was a parallel tradition coming from the early church unknown to history given the historic claims of Rome and the Eastern Orthodox churches?

To show I am not being snarky in asking this, I will admit Armstrong claimed a different unbroken apostolic tradition from Rome. I think he called it the underground church. I did not get this from a website but from his early programs which my friends mom used to watch.


41 posted on 12/23/2013 5:16:14 PM PST by redleghunter
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To: DouglasKC

“You can call me names all day but it still doesn’t change what the bible says.”


And you can repeat this until you turn blue, or hell swallows you up, but all your verse says is that “of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, etc”. Without actually saying ‘WHAT’ the doctrine is.

Meanwhile, the only mandate we actually receive in the Gospel for the purpose of salvation is “Believe,” and the only practices actually enjoined on all Christians universally (but not for salvation) are baptism, and the Lord’s Supper.

As Barnes observes:

“... on the question whether it [the laying on of hands] is to be regarded as of perpetual obligation in the Church, we are to remember:
(1) That the apostles were endowed with the power of imparting the influences of the Holy Spirit in a miraculous or extraordinary manner. It was with reference to such an imparting of the Holy Spirit that the expression is used in each of the cases where it occurs in the New Testament.
(2) the Saviour did not appoint the imposition of the hands of a “bishop” to be one of the rites or ceremonies to be observed perpetually in the Church. The injunction to be baptized and to observe his supper is positive, and is universal in its obligation. But there is no such command respecting the imposition of hands.”

You can copy and paste the same verse over and over again, but you cannot prove what the “doctrine” even is, nor provide any actual command to perform it, nor can you actually explain the objections already presented, but must imagine that Philip transferred the Spirit to the Ethiopian secretly, or else that the Spirit caught him away before he could finish “converting” the Ethiopian. You also cannot demonstrate that you, as happens in EVERY instance of laying on of hands in the scripture, actually are transferring any spiritual gifts.


42 posted on 12/23/2013 5:23:08 PM PST by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

Well done!


43 posted on 12/23/2013 5:23:49 PM PST by narses (... unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.)
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To: F15Eagle

lol


44 posted on 12/23/2013 5:28:07 PM PST by Hoodat (Democrats - Opposing Equal Protection since 1828)
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Comment #45 Removed by Moderator

To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
The fact that signs and wonders accompanied the giving of the Spirit in those days, which is no longer given in our day

Speak for yourself.

46 posted on 12/23/2013 6:02:02 PM PST by Hoodat (Democrats - Opposing Equal Protection since 1828)
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To: redleghunter
Doug I may have asked this before. How do you trace apostolic authority for the laying of hands to receive the Holy Spirit? I know you said any believer can do it, but that would require, excuse the term, believer “zero” to get the ball running in your church. Is there a tradition in your church dating back to when?

I don't think there had to be apostolic authority in the way you defined it last time we talked. Nobody knows for sure the path, only that we trust that God provided that path. Obviously we can't know for sure.

And BTW I don't think that the path led straight or exclusively to UCG. My speculation is that the first gentile Christians and the first jewish Christians established this line and it went many places and through many organizations such as Catholics, Protestants or groups unknown, etc. and branched out many places. Those first gentiles who receive the God's spirit are never again mentioned in scripture but it's presumed they laid hands on people. I also don't think the holy spirit is something that is transferred from person to person but instead is given by God at the request of believer by God through prayer and the laying on of hands.

I will admit Armstrong claimed a different unbroken apostolic tradition from Rome. I think he called it the underground church. I did not get this from a website but from his early programs which my friends mom used to watch.

From my understanding (and I was never in Armstrong's organization) I think you're right. He and most of the Worldwide people taught for the most part that that this path was invisible and probably wouldn't have granted that it could go through any traditional or Catholic church. My view, which I believe is shared by many within UCG, is that Christians and potential Christians exist within (and outside of) many organizations. UCG has for the last few years been trying to weed out what are traditional beliefs as opposed to scriptural ones. Hope that helps. Clearly there must be speculation about this...

47 posted on 12/23/2013 6:04:00 PM PST by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC

My church refers to it as the baptism of the Holy Spirit. I believe one of the greatest tragedies of modern day Christians is that they do not develop an intimate relationship with Holy Spirit.


48 posted on 12/23/2013 6:08:08 PM PST by Hoodat (Democrats - Opposing Equal Protection since 1828)
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To: F15Eagle; Hoodat

“No, but Scripture is what Scripture is.”


Keep in mind we’re talking about a anti-Trinitarian religious cult that believes that unless you receive the laying on of hands by their ministers, you do not have the the Holy Spirit. Therefore, you are damned, as you have not kept up with the second obligation necessary to start on the road to ‘eternal life.’ The scripture, certainly, says no such thing as that, as has been shown.

Perhaps you are a Charismatic who holds that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is a second and independent event to salvation, and that is what you are reading into the text, and not what this guy is actually arguing is in the text?


49 posted on 12/23/2013 6:11:00 PM PST by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
As Barnes observes: “... on the question whether it [the laying on of hands] is to be regarded as of perpetual obligation in the Church, we are to remember: (1) That the apostles were endowed with the power of imparting the influences of the Holy Spirit in a miraculous or extraordinary manner. It was with reference to such an imparting of the Holy Spirit that the expression is used in each of the cases where it occurs in the New Testament. (2) the Saviour did not appoint the imposition of the hands of a “bishop” to be one of the rites or ceremonies to be observed perpetually in the Church. The injunction to be baptized and to observe his supper is positive, and is universal in its obligation. But there is no such command respecting the imposition of hands.”

Quoting the opinion of a "guy" to try and supersede scripture on the matter gives me a choice to believe the "guy" or to believe scripture. I'll take scripture every time.

50 posted on 12/23/2013 6:11:09 PM PST by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC

“I’ll take scripture every time.”


Okay, feel free to provide it! “Unless you believe, and have hands laid on you by one of our Apostles from UCG Inc, and deny the Trinity, and keep the law, and hold to certain dietary laws, and celebrate our festivals, you will never see the Kingdom of God!” What chapter and verse does that come in from?


51 posted on 12/23/2013 6:15:11 PM PST by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
Okay, feel free to provide it!

Okay...

Hbr 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Hbr 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

No matter how much you try and talk around it, or throw out insults, or reason around it, scripture STILL emphatically and absolutely states that part of the doctrine of Jesus Christ our Lord is the doctrine of the laying on of hands.

If you don't want to practice it or endorse scripture that's your choice.

52 posted on 12/23/2013 6:25:41 PM PST by DouglasKC
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Comment #53 Removed by Moderator

To: DouglasKC

“No matter how much you try and talk around it,”


Instead of just making the same post over and over again, it probably would be more effective of you to actually respond to my posts :).

Well, as effective as a religious cult can be, which is not very, even when they try.


54 posted on 12/23/2013 6:35:21 PM PST by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
Instead of just making the same post over and over again, it probably would be more effective of you to actually respond to my posts :).

Okay, let's try it a different way...in your opinion when did Jesus Christ's doctrine of the laying on of hands cease being part of the doctrine of traditional Christianity?

55 posted on 12/23/2013 6:37:09 PM PST by DouglasKC
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To: F15Eagle

“Don’t associate me with UCG — you’ve been told”


Or you’ll do what, write to me in all capital letters? I WASN’T associating you with the UCG, tough guy. I was asking you to clarify, and pointing out what this thread is actually about.

Do you agree with his arguments or not? And what ARE his arguments, do you think? I’m just asking you to clarify what it is you actually believe.


56 posted on 12/23/2013 6:37:17 PM PST by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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Comment #57 Removed by Moderator

Comment #58 Removed by Moderator

To: DouglasKC

“Okay, let’s try it a different way...in your opinion when did Jesus Christ’s doctrine of the laying on of hands cease being part of the doctrine of traditional Christianity?”


Or, let’s try it the way I’ve been asking you to do. Why waste time running from it?: Where is there a mandate, anywhere in scripture, for the laying on of hands? When it says “Beleive and be baptized, and whoever does not believe is damned,” and again, “This day thou shalt be with me in Paradise,” based on the faith only of the Thief, why didn’t Christ make it clear that there was actually a lot MORE hoops to jump through? Is the Thief in hell or is he in heaven? When the Ethiopian walked off rejoicing, why didn’t Luke comment and say “But the Ethiopian shouldn’t have been rejoicing, since his conversion was cut short, contrary to our teachings.” And, where, in scripture, is the doctrine of the laying on of hands actually spelled out?

That last one is the most important one. WHAT is the doctrine of the laying on of hands? What does it actually SAY? And, if it is so important, why is there no explicit command to perform it?

How come you can’t answer these questions first? I asked them first of you, didn’t I? Why should I respond to you, when I’ve answered you plenty of times already, and you’ve not had the good-will to reciprocate?


59 posted on 12/23/2013 6:43:50 PM PST by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: F15Eagle

“I’m most only your side but if you’re trying to start a problem, I’m telling you right now to back off.”


Well then just straight out and say so. Don’t get defensive for no reason, and then start commanding me around, as if I had insulted you or something.


60 posted on 12/23/2013 6:46:15 PM PST by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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