Can We Lose Our Salvation?

Tim Staples' Blog ^ | October 5, 2013 | Tim Staples

[GonzoII]

Can We Lose Our Salvation?

Hebrews 6:4-6 reveals a rather unsettling truth: We can lose our state of grace and fall away from the Lord.

For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt.

For those who teach what Calvinists call “the final perseverance of the saints,” this text presents real problems. Some will argue the above description only refers to people who “knew about the Lord,” but were never really saved to begin with. I have always wondered if those making that argument can really be satisfied with it. It seems the inspired author makes clear, almost to the point of redundancy, that he was speaking about those who have been saved and then “commit apostasy.”

Another Protestant tack is to claim the author is presenting an impossible hypothetical. In other words, he’s saying it would be impossible to restore again to repentance one who had truly been baptized into Jesus Christ because it is impossible for such a person to fall away to begin with.

This doesn’t work, either. The author is presenting a warning of the peril of falling away from the Lord. He would hardly warn his readers of something that is impossible to actually happen.

Do Catholics Prove Too Much?

Most “eternally secure” Protestants with whom I have spoken about these verses of Scripture end up acknowledging their case to be weak from the text alone. But when cornered, I have found almost invariably they attempt to turn the tables on me by claiming I prove too much as a Catholic. If this text is saying one can fall away, then it also says the one who falls away cannot be restored. This would be contrary to Catholic teaching.

The greater context of the entire epistle gives us the answer to this apparent difficulty. Hebrews was written to… you guessed it… Hebrews. But more specifically to Hebrew Christians who were being tempted to go back to the Old Covenant priesthood, sacrifices, and other practices, like circumcision, in order to be saved. It is in this context—from start to finish—that the inspired author runs the gamut on Jewish belief showing how Christ is greater than and/or is the fulfillment of the entire Old Covenant.

In chapters one and two, Jesus is revealed to be greater than the angels; he’s revealed to be God (see Hebrews 1:5-10). In chapters three and four, he is our true high priest, greater than Moses, and fulfillment of what the Sabbath symbolized (see 3:3; 4:2-11). In chapters five and seven, he is the antitype of Melchizadek (5:5-10; 7:11). In chapter eight, he is superior to and the fulfillment of the Old Covenant in establishing the New (8:8-13). In chapters nine and ten, he is superior to the temple and its sacrifices (9:23-24; 10:4-10). And it is in this context that the inspired author then exhorts his readers to endure the persecution that had already begun by this time (10:32-39). He calls them to “hold fast the confession of [their] hope without wavering” (10:23), and to remain faithful to the Church Jesus established rather than go back to an Old Covenant and its sacrifices that have no power to save (10:25-31; 12:18-25; 13:7-10).

If we understand the greater context, we understand that the author of Hebrews is not saying it is impossible to be forgiven of the sin of apostasy; rather, it is impossible for those who “have tasted the heavenly gift” of the New Covenant and would then return to the Old Covenant to be saved. Why? Because they are trusting in a covenant, law, priesthood, sacrifice, and more that do not possess the power to save. They are returning to a well without water.

If these same Hebrews, or by allusion anyone down through the centuries who may have apostatized, turn back to Christ and his Church trusting in the graces that alone come from the sacrifice of Christ, then of course they can be restored to a saving relationship with God.

[James C. Bennett]

Yawn.

[Religion Moderator]

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.

[James C. Bennett]

"For your argument to be valid..."

Ah...

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

LOL.

[boatbums]

Sounds like Augustine knew the true gospel.

[boatbums]

I appreciated that post. One man's "spam" is another man's fillet mignon! Would you have minded it if it supported the doctrine Tim Staples espoused?

[boatbums]

VERY touching! Thanks. That verse from John 10 is what the Holy Spirit illuminated to my heart and lead me to saving faith in Christ.

[HarleyD]

I should add that once I understood POTS, that it is God who saved me and keeps me, then every other Reformed doctrine fell into place. I know that I would never have admitted my sinful nature if God hadn't opened my eyes and caused me to repent. I'm eternally secure because I was chosen by God. And my salvation is maintained by God because it is not I but Christ that works in me. Therefore I am sealed with the Holy Spirit and am confident that He who began a good work in me will bring it to completion. It is all God's doing to the praise of His glory. And only I can search my heart (e.g. do I enjoy praying, fellowship, reading God's word, repenting, etc.) to know if I am being deceived about that matter. And I want to do His will to please Him-not because I'm a good person but because He's a loving Father.

For some people who "walked down that aisle" and believe they've made a "choice", this is a difficult thing to grasp. Thus they are constantly confused about their salvation. Are they really saved? Others know they are saved but can't accept or at least explain why. Thus you have OSAS. But my conversion never involved making a choice to follow Jesus. I never walked down an aisle. I am a stubborn and proud person. Much like Paul, or perhaps more like Cornelius, God came to me and saved me. And, really, that is true about each believer. Like Moses, we are drawn to the burning bush.

Exo 20:21 The people stood far off, while Moses drew near to the thick darkness where God was.

If you understand this passage, then you understand perseverance of the saints.

[liberty or death]

We are not cut out of the equation because we must “accept” Jesus Christ’s sacrifice as full payment for our sins, past present and future.

A human being no matter how hard he tries sins constantly. We must have a redeemer or off to hell we go. Without the acceptance of out Lords sacrifice we are lost.

My chore daily is to ask for His blessing and thank Him for so great a sacrifice that I surely could not bear.

Repentance is not ceasing from sinful bad habits, nor even being willing to turn from one’s sins; Repentance is turning to the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved from one’s sins (Romans 4:5). Salvation is receiving; NOT giving. Eternal life is the free gift of God (Romans 5:15;6:23), paid for by Jesus’ precious literal blood (1st Peter 1:18,19). To be saved we simply need to come as a guilty sinner to Jesus Christ to have our sins washed away by His redeeming blood (1st John 1:7). Salvation is turning to Jesus to be forgiven of one’s sins; NOT turning from one’s sins in order to be forgiven by Jesus.

[HarleyD]

There was a case on a tv show where a man who ...met with an accident that damaged his memory. He underwent rehabilitation but in the process ended up adopting a new religion.

A very interesting case. In this case would you say that a baby who never knew any difference would be saved? How about aborted babies?

Salvation is given by the grace of God and none can change that.

[James C. Bennett]

A very interesting case. In this case would you say that a baby who never knew any difference would be saved? How about aborted babies?

I've asked the same before. If yes, then in the interest of automatic salvation, it would seem as if the babies are better off kept ignorant. Isn't this the logical outcome of the guarantee?

[SkyPilot]

Revelations makes it clear that even believers will end up in the burning lake of fire.

The topic of this thread, while interesting, is also one that I believe is one that must be handled very cautiously and carefully. The reason I say that is this: if we misinterpret what God's actual will and purpose is with this subject, and if we chose the side of error, then we are robbing God of His power, glory and mission with humanity. That is something we must avoid at all costs.

It is with trepidation that I even tread here, as I am not a trained Bible scholar or pastor. I am simply a sinner who Christ gave mercy to.

Full disclosure: I was raised a Roman Catholic, and I was a practicing Catholic until my 30's. For me, I never missed Mass on Sunday mornings. However, the rest of life was without God's word, even though my family though me to be the most "Catholic" of them all. I was constantly searching for the truth. And yet, despite all my attempts, I could not crawl out of my own sinful nature.

I know there have been some very strong opinions already on this thread. Let my prayer be this: whatever is said further will be done by seeking the truth in love. Especially now, this Christmas, when we reflect that God was made flesh, to suffer and die for us.

I am guessing your reference to believers burning the lake of fire is Revelation 20: 13-15

13Then the sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead; all were judged according to their works. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 14Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 14Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. 15And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. 15And anyone not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

It is my belief that those cast into the lake of fire will not be believers in Christ. There is a judgement seat for believers in Christ, Romans 14:10-12, but that is quite different. I believe that when we give our account to God, we will be rewarded, or have crowns taken away that were ours, before the Lord and our brothers and sisters. We are still His in heaven, but some will forever wear crowns that they earned, and we will witness that.

10 You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister[a]? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. 11 It is written: “‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord, ‘every knee will bow before me; every tongue will acknowledge God.’”[b] 12 So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God

To something Gamecock said:

Once save always saved is an off shoot of Arminian easy-believism. Looks kind of like this: “Walk the aisle, sign the card, and your are in, no matter what. You made the decision, can’t be revacated.”

Gamecock, I used to think the term "easy-believism" was a very clever and cautionary term. In fact, I heard Chuck Colson use it once (and I greatly admired Chuck). However, the term as currently used is misguided, because it borders on what I mentioned earlier: misapplied, it robs the Lord Christ of His power, mystery, glory, and mission.

Here is why I say that:

1. There was nothing "easy" about Christ's torture, death, and resurrection. Nothing. When I have read about the medical description of the crucifixion of Jesus I have wept. He said "It is completion" before He gave us His spirit, having poured our EVERYTHING for us. No, there was nothing easy in that. So, is the "easiness" to be part of our caution? We must come by faith, which leads to point 2.

2. Believing, and overcoming our doubts, and the arrows of the enemy, is not easy either. It is very hard to give up our will and surrender to Jesus Christ! Look at the world! They are like I was was - to surrender, and acknowledge God is the hardest thing to do in one's life. Phil Robertson is terrorizing the secular media and homosexual community because He spoke the truth about God's sovereignty and what Romans has to say on the subject of who enters the Kingdom. Once we come to faith, we see the folly of our previous actions. But coming to faith is a massive event, and it takes God Himself to bring us there.

Simple faith thrilled Yeshua. It is by faith that we are saved.

By implying that we can "lose" our salvation, once gained, we are joining the legalistic ranks who attempt to drain the cross of all its power. As a Catholic, I used to beg priest after priest: "How can I be sure I am going to heaven?" I knew I was going to Hell. I had dreams of it - very real dreams. I wanted to be saved. They all gave me the same answer: "Well, that is a great mystery.....we can never be sure....so say the rosary, go to confession, go to Mass, do good works, etc, etc, etc...."

When I was saved, I KNEW I was saved. The Bible tells us this is true.

How can we deny on this? To do so is make the essence of Christianity the same as every other religion that weighs down humanity. Christianity is different precisely because Christ paid the penalty. It literally is Good News.

I understand the caution about sin. But as mentioned here, sanctification and salvation are two very different things. God knows who His sheep are.

Believe it or now, this was my devotional verse over coffee this morning:

Psalm 149:4

"For the Lord takes pleasure in his people; he adorns the humble with salvation."

Merry Christmas

[Hoodat]

Thank you for your post. The verse I was referring to was this:

But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Revelation 21:8

I find it interesting how 'cowardly' was mentioned first. The root of all sin is fear.

[Hoodat]

We are not cut out of the equation because we must “accept” Jesus Christ’s sacrifice as full payment for our sins, past present and future.

Future? Be careful here. I believe you are adding doctrine here that is not scriptural. Consider what happens at a later date when we fail to acknowledge sin? There is no confession. There is no repentance. There is no accepting Christ's sacrifice.

Accepting Christ only marks the starting line. We must actually run the race. We cannot rest on our laurels with the attitude that there is nothing else left to do. There is.

But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you.

Matthew 6:33

[RaceBannon]

have you also noticed the errors here about salvation in other ways?

Not only do many here defend the idea that a person can lose their salvation, but that God chose to save people not yet born and NOT save the rest?

That means, that the people espousing this doctrine of losing your salvation , can be said to believe the following:

God knows in eternity past who will be born
He knows who He will save
He CHOOSES who will be saved
He CHOOSES TO NOT save people
Those who He chose to save, are people He chooses to UNSAVE..>REJECT AFTER SALVATION

God is an Indian Giver to these people
God chooses to save them, and God chooses to UNSAVE them, all in Eternity past

If the ELECT are people who God knew in Eternity past that He would save them, then the eternal omniscient God also KNEW HE WOULD REJECT THEM AFTER SAVING THEM

“YOU’RE SAVED——NOW YOU’RE NOT!”, said God.

Calvinism has such a cruel unjust idea of who God is and what Salvation is.

[daniel1212]

Ah... http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman LOL.

You may try to laugh your way out of this, but i was aware of the No true Scotsman fallacy, but which does not apply here, as my requirement that you offer support that the man was a "true Scotsman," is not without reference to any specific objective rule, for while your argument assumes one was a true "Scotsman," yet the Scriptures, which records the first use of the term "Christian," (Acts 11:26) describes what that term denotes , and we know this is contrary to what often passes for "Christian."

Thus in order for your example of Christian no longer being a Christian, you must be able to offer some evidence that he was indeed a Christian. Otherwise it is simply https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question

[wmfights]

The London Baptist Confession states the same:

XXIII. Those that have this precious faith wrought in them by the Spirit, can never finally nor totally fall away; and though many storms and floods do arise and beat against them, yet they shall never be able to take them off that foundation and rock which by faith they are fastened upon, but shall be kept by the power of God to salvation, where they shall enjoy their purchased possession, they being formerly engraven upon the palms of God's hands.

Mat. 7:24, 25; John 13:1; 1 Peter 1:4-6; Isa. 49:13-16

When the doctrine of "free will" (man making a choice) came about, this corrupted the POTS doctrine since man by his own volition could make another choice to be separated from God. This causes problems, especially with those who believe in eternal security.

Thanks for the detailed post.

I suspect that the highlighted portion of the London Baptist Confession might change your mind. After all, how can an individual pick and choose what they want to do if the " faith wrought in them by the Spirit" also makes sure they can never be lost.

FWIW, we have no disagreement about the sovereignty of GOD. Also, I have been a member of a leading dispensational baptistic church for over 16 years and in that time I have never heard my Pastor claim we have absolute free will. Instead I have heard him preach at great length about the "golden chain".

Roms 8: 28-30...(30)Moreover whom He predestined these He also called; whom He called these He also justified; and whom He justified these He also glorified.

I believe where we may diverge is with the altar call, or salvation prayer, that is done in Evangelical churches. It seems that it is often derided as "easy believism" but really we recognize it is the Holy Spirit pulling these non-believers forward and we don't expect them to have advanced theological degrees of understanding. Almost all of these people believe they "choose" to come forward. The vast majority of these new Brothers and Sisters in Christ never advance much beyond basic understanding and that may be the root of the confusion over once saved always saved.

As always I'm interested in your thoughts.

[wmfights]

Once save always saved is an off shoot of Arminian easy-believism. Looks kind of like this: “Walk the aisle, sign the card, and your are in, no matter what. You made the decision, can’t be revacated.”

It may seem like that but we know that following a true faith in The Gospel works will follow.

Eph. 2:10 For we are His workman ship, created by Christ Jesus for good works,...

The individual who walks the aisle on his own does not end up performing God's good works. They either fall away, or they do works to "buy" salvation (they were never truly one of us).

Calvinism has God as the one who calls us and through the Holy Spirit guards us from falling away. We may wander for a time, but God will always draw us back.

Or, He may take us home.

Calvin gave voice to truth found in Scripture. He didn't invent it, these truth's are found in Scripture. The Reformed often seem to claim these truth's can't exist outside their assemblies. In all my years as a Born Again Christian, first at a Baptist church and later at a baptistic non-denominational church I have never heard once saved always saved taught as a "free pass" to do what you want. It's always been taught as the begining. First we believe The Gospel then our Christian walk begins.

[James C. Bennett]

Yeah, you will need a mind-reader for that.

And if he fails YOUR test for Christianity, start raking the coals.

Going by your “reasoning” if it were someone else who happened to be leaning toward your ideological persuasion, the excuse would have been “... but (s)he is only human, and not perfect...”, to allow said person to qualify the Christian test in spite of the transgressions. You make it sound as though a person who is a “true Christian,” ‘saved,’ ‘born-again,’ and all that can never again sin.

Please.

[wmfights]

For some people who "walked down that aisle" and believe they've made a "choice", this is a difficult thing to grasp. Thus they are constantly confused about their salvation. Are they really saved? Others know they are saved but can't accept or at least explain why. Thus you have OSAS.

I disagree and here's why.

Prior to any altar call the pastor will preach The Gospel. Obviously, some pastors are better than others and some churches are better than others at following up, but The Gospel is preached and then non-believers that have a desire to believe, or to be saved, are asked to come forward. Sure, they believe they "choose" to come forward, but a lack of theological understanding does not keep them from becoming Christians. A deeper more joyful appreciation of how everything happened comes with maturity, but there is never an altar call without The Gospel.

[Gamecock]

You make a great point that us valid for many.

However there are quite a few pastors who are so skillled at manipulating the emotions of folks that an emotional response is made, not a response out of being born again. Those are the people I am referring to.