Posted on 11/25/2013 9:03:35 AM PST by Laissez-faire capitalist
The Apostle Paul said to not become drunk on wine, but to be filled with the Spirit. Obviously, there is a point at which one can imbibe a certain amount of alcohol, be it from fermented grapes, fermenting honey, or whatever - and become drunk.
I imagine that some people, somewhere, can drink one beer for the first time and become drunk - a rarity indeed - but nonetheless not outside the realm of possiblity. And so, by drinking that first beer, they become drunk --- and sin. Others may say that it takes x amount (be it from wine, beer, hard liquor, etc) to become drunk (i.e. a 6 pack). Others may say that it takes x amount of the aforementioned times 1.5 (9 beers). Others may say 2 times x - a 12 pack...
Is it different for each person? .
Can some people say "I wasn't drunk, I was just slightly tipsy, or somewhat tipsy, and thus was not drunk and therefore do not need to repent of the sin of drunkenness." Who is to say? Do they alone know the truth?
The best thing to do is avoid alcohol altogether.
Now some may say that if this road is trod that it could lead to a host of "maybe I shouldn't do this or that" and thus it becomes a question of necessity.
Is clothing necessary? Yes. Is food necessary? Yes. And on and on... And so, some things in life aren't necessary. Is alcohol necessary?
Can someone become addicted to a host of things? Certainly. Some are probably addicted to social websites - how is that any different from being addicted to cigarettes? Sure, certain addiction may have different levels of consquence, but addictions of any sort aren't pleasing to God.
And, once again, I will add to this - for those who missed it the first two times:
A young man was heard accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. A few years later he went off to Bible college, graduated, and became a youth pastor not long thereafter. Around two years later he fell into sin, deep sin, whatever. Half of the church thought that he was never saved to begin with, and the other half thought that he had merely "fallen out of fellowship" with Christ, but was nonetheless still saved.
So how much bad fruit, or lack of good fruit, does one have to show in order to be classified into the "never saved" to begin with or the merely "out of fellowship with Christ"? X amount of sin? X amount plus one act of drunkenness? X amount of a particular sin, plus one act of drunkenness, plus one time of fornication to put them "over the top" and into the realm of the "never saved"? And how much of a time period must elapse between each sin(s)?
Yes, Paul the Apostle knew that certain of the Thessalonians were saved, and appaerently the Apostle John knew that certain were saved when he wrote to them, but they were writing the scriptures. The Bible says that the scriptures are God breathed, and Paul wrote that the scriptures were written when the Holy Spirit moved upon men.
And thus it wasn't Paul or John who knew who was or wasn't saved, but God alone --- He revealed this to them as they wrote the scriptures. But since there are supposedly no Apostles around anymore, who is there for God to reveal things like this to? And secondly, the canon of scripture is closed.
I believe that we know personally if our hearts are or aren't right with Jesus Christ. I know when God has pricked my heart on several occasions. As to being able to say with absolute certainty whether or not the person sitting next to me or you in the pew is or isn't saved - who is to know?
I believe that the term "out of fellowship with Christ" needs to be chunked.
If a person is in sin, claims to be saved, then someone should follow the scriptures and go to that person and tell them that they need to repent. If they refuse, then take a second person, (an elder of the church). If they refuse to repent, let the local body of believers they belong to decide to tell them that they refuse to repent and are thus disfellowshipped. Sure, they can still come to that church church, but they (as Jesus said) would be treated like a heathen man.
And so, if that youth pastor person ultimately refused to repent... in the end, was he never truly saved to begin with? And if so, how could they he duped the church for so long?
If his departure from the church was his unmasking, who is to say that he will never return and truly repent, thus showing that a declaration of him being never saved to begin with was actually premature, as they later repented, and thus showed that they were saved in the first place, and had not duped the church, but had fallen into sin?
So, once again, how can one ever differentiate here in the here and now, and at this moment b/w those who are or will be known later as the "never saved" and the "fallen out of fellowship with Christ"?
My experience as a counselor to problem drinkers/alcoholics is that they reject any kind of restriction whatsoever.
For a Christian, living in our era, our BAC laws provide a starting point on determining the definition of drunkenness BECAUSE they have used research data that has been based on levels of BAC that cause incapacitation.
That would be pretty much universal once it’s gone to that level.
My experience as a counselor is that the BAC is right on the money in determining when the drinker has crossed a line.
Well, I am more than a little bit reticent to look to any state to determine something that has so many differing factors that affect folks differently.
It could be true that a good guideline could be used by what the state says about it, but I doubt every person ever arrested for intoxication by the state was automatically guilty of the sin of biblical drunkenness.
Freegards
And I have carefully mentioned blood alcohol content repeatedly, so there's really no argument. Blood alcohol content is the basis of our intoxication laws, and it is a pretty solid measure of incapacitation. It's backed by a host of research demonstrating the incapacitation.
It's fairly obvious why it's a standard that makes problem drinkers/alcoholics nervous. It's provable, verifiable, repeatable.
And those with drinking issues are uncomfortable with it.
He speaks to the goats on the left hand, His sheep on the right. The ones on the right are saved, while those on the left are not.
No.
The sheep are the saved, the goats aren't.
Besides, that judgment is at the end of the age. Any believers who are alive today and have put their faith in Christ for salvation are already saved. Christ's righteousness has been credited to their account.
So even IF they were judged on works, they would be judged on the works of Jesus which have been credited to their account, so they're good to go anyway.
If guilty of DWI, then the intoxicated person is guilty of two issues. 1) Disobeying the laws of man. 2) Drunkenness.
DUI (under the influence, vice while intoxicated) is sometimes not as severe (depending upon State Law).
The 0.08 BAC levels are generally far more incapacitating than the actual level of impairment. Alcoholics might build up a tolerance, but are also fooled into a less clear mindset in which to form their judgments and perceptions.
Arguably, judgment is the first thing influenced when they become inebriated. Later stages impair perceptions. Response times not only become lengthier, but coordination is impaired. The ability to perceive their diminished state, in part influenced by poor judgment and poor coordination convolute the problems.
A more difficult issue arises when the BAC is less than 0.01 percent and poor judgment insues.
God certainly did give us guidelines for such. For example, wine was commanded by God to be given as a "drink offering" (see Exodus 29:40,41; Lev. 23:13). But God also commanded of the Aaronic priesthood, "Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations. (Lev. 10:9)
Those that undertook the Nazarite vow were commanded in Numbers 6:2-4:
Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When either man or woman shall separate themselves to vow a vow of a Nazarite, to separate themselves unto the Lord: He shall separate himself from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried. All the days of his separation shall he eat nothing that is made of the vine tree, from the kernels even to the husk.
This was not a vow that was undertaken for a man's entire life, but for a certain time period. If you notice, not even raisins were allowed to be eaten nor corn, for that matter. It was not intended as a prohibition for ALL.
Throughout the book of Numbers, wine is specifically mentioned as part of the offerings the people were to make unto the Lord. There is no reason to presume that this wasn't fermented grape juice, else that would have certainly been mentioned as God gave exacting descriptions concerning measures, types, etc.
In the book of Deuteronomy, the blessings of God were demonstrated by "And he will love thee, and bless thee, and multiply thee: he will also bless the fruit of thy womb, and the fruit of thy land, thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep, in the land which he sware unto thy fathers to give thee." (Deut. 7:13)
In the book of Judges, the angel of the Lord tells the mother of Samson that she would bear a son after she had been barren. He told her that her son would be a Nazarite "from the womb" and that:
And the angel of the Lord appeared unto the woman, and said unto her, Behold now, thou art barren, and bearest not: but thou shalt conceive, and bear a son. Now therefore beware, I pray thee, and drink not wine nor strong drink, and eat not any unclean thing: For, lo, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and no razor shall come on his head: for the child shall be a Nazarite unto God from the womb: and he shall begin to deliver Israel out of the hand of the Philistines. (Judges 13:3-5)
As a side note, this is good advice, as we have been learning for some time, that pregnant women SHOULD avoid alcohol for the health of their babies.
Many other passages speak of wine as a blessing from the Lord:
And wine that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face to shine, and bread which strengtheneth man's heart. (Psalm 104:15)
So shall thy barns be filled with plenty, and thy presses shall burst out with new wine. (Proverbs 3:10)
But, the Lord also gives warnings about wine:
Proverbs 20:1 - Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.
Proverbs 21:17 - He that loveth pleasure shall be a poor man: he that loveth wine and oil shall not be rich.
Proverbs 23:20 - Be not among winebibbers; among riotous eaters of flesh:
Proverbs 23:29-33:
Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes? They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine. Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder. Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things.
Those are sufficient warnings that STILL are true. So, does the Lord command anywhere that NO wine should EVER be used by ANYONE? No, I don't think He does. What He does say is to avoid "lingering", to be moderate in ALL things, to avoid letting wine and strong drink "befuddle" sound judgment - that is the point being made. Those who ignore God's warnings will pay a price and for some, who cannot control their addictions, avoidance is a good idea.
Good post. The High Priestly prayer of Jesus in John 17 is very clear on security of the sheep.
You are speaking from having a degree in genetics and a minor in nutrition? Please give us some references. And check out the title of this article--perhaps you'd supply us some Scriptural foundation also?
Until then --
http://frac.org/initiatives/hunger-and-obesity/obesity-in-the-us/
(It's probably the 'almost all' descriptor that allows a person to put their own mentally conceived percentages into the vacuum.)
I hope the Harvard School of Public Health meets your standards. If you don't like that one, I can supply you with many more.
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/obesity-prevention-source/obesity-causes/
Many factors influence body weight—genes, though the effect is small, and heredity is not destiny; prenatal and early life influences; poor diets; too much television watching; too little physical activity and sleep; and our food and physical activity environment. At its most basic, of course, obesity results when someone regularly takes in more calories than needed. Heredity plays a role in obesity but generally to a much lesser degree than many people might believe...Rather than being obesity’s sole cause, genes seem to increase the risk of weight gain and interact with other risk factors in the environment, such as unhealthy diets and inactive lifestyles.
You can find dozens of scientific (read: real research) studies that say the same thing over and over: over eating and lack of activity.
In other words, exactly what the Bible warns us against: gluttony and sloth.
And just so you don't accuse me of taking those out of context, here are the definitions:
1. Gluttony: glut·ton·y (gltn-) n. pl. glut·ton·ies Excess in eating or drinking.
2. Sloth: noun \ˈslȯth, ˈsläth also ˈslÅth\ disinclination to action or labor : indolence
Here is an example of a "cop out", Politically Correct defense of obesity that has to admit up front the real cause (over indulging in food), and then adds all the excuses right below:
http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/health-topics/topics/obe/causes.html
"Overweight and obesity happen over time when you take in more calories than you use."
So far, so good......
"Our environment doesn't support healthy lifestyle habits; in fact, it encourages obesity. Some reasons include: - Lack of neighborhood sidewalks and safe places for recreation"
Oh dear.
- "Work schedules. People often say that they don't have time to be physically active because of long work hours and time spent commuting."
Ah, yes.
- "Oversized food portions. Americans are exposed to huge food portions in restaurants, fast food places, gas stations, movie theaters, supermarkets, and even at home."
I knew it was "their" fault somehow....
- "Lack of access to healthy foods. Some people don't live in neighborhoods that have supermarkets that sell healthy foods, such as fresh fruits and vegetables. Or, for some people, these healthy foods are too costly."
Michelle Obama would be proud. It is the 'food deserts' of the inner city that contribute to obesity, I guess.
- "Food advertising. Americans are surrounded by ads from food companies."
The evils of Capitalism strike again.
Obesity is a reflection of the way we live our lives before God. Whenever we attempt to minimize the consequences of that, we are in conflict with God's Word (Galatians 6:7).
"Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand."
Philippians 4:5
I guess I'm going to have to cut this short. The issue is not of being servile, the issue is being right, and being right 100% of the time, from which we get the word "righteousness," not the word "obedience."
In other words, you can obey someone else perfectly, yet be wrong. These are separable qualities that can be brought into play independently. They are, in the mathematical sense, orthogonal. They are two of a set of several irreducible distinctives, or traits, that characterize a behavior.
To illustrate, the Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory (a quite long tool used by psychologists), and the Edwards Personality Preference Profile (a shorter version) are examples of individual behavior indicators to help counselors. (FWIW as identifying behavioral traits to be modified.)(Not saying I approve of these invasive self-assessment checklists, but thats what they are designed to do.)
Please do not miss this point this time, eh?
What did Jesus mean when He said ... " ... that righteousness be fulfilled"
?
Overweight can happen when your body reacts poorly to foods.
Because of my mast cell disorder, I had to switch from wheat to oats. Without any effort, and actually eating more than I did with the wheat, I lost 50 pounds.
I had noted years ago that when I ate wheat, I put on weight. When I asked my allergist’s office about it, they told me that they didn’t understand the mechanism, but wheat dos that to some people.
Part of the problem with obesity, is the body reacting wrong to the western diet. It’s particularly common in different people groups who never were exposed to wheat as part of their history.
Yes, a great deal of obesity is due to people simply overeating, but I’d say a lot isn’t, more than most people realize because they’ve been duped into thinking that the high carb diet that the government is pushing as *good for you* really isn’t.
And then we are expected to trust the government to decide what it *drunk*?
I don’t think so.
I believe you must be talking about Mt. 25:31-46, which is about national policies as applied to treatment of the Jews,; and specifically those of Israel. There Israel as a nation is included in ho it has treated individual citizens.
This does not apply in the sense you wish. p> Pick another Scripture, like "Love God; love your neighbor as yourself."
Are you indicating that you did not understand mu Post #128 to you? The idea is that:
(1) Jesus came to live and act as God in the flesh, as a human.
(2) To be consistent and not hypocritical (like the Pharisees) he must always not only do, but think and speak of every thing in an absolutely correct manner.
(3) As a Jew under the Mosaic/Davidic covenant--which He as Jehovah had called Moses to write down and to (attempt to) observe--He must thus know and observe every bit of that law, both the moral and the ceremonial aspects of it; that is, to fully fulfil The Law. That is to put The Law into thought and action completely in every respect. A Precise Translation gives it thus:
"Do not presume that I came to nullify the law or the prophets. I did not come to nullify, but to fully fulfil. For amen I am saying to you, 'Until ever the Heaven and the Earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall positively not pass away from the law until ever all things come to pass.' " (Mt. 5:16-17 APT).
(4) The sense re the application of the ceremonial law to His baptism by John was a fulfilment of what for Aaron and his son's were required to perform just before they stepped into their earthly ministry; that is, to be washed all over, ritually and actually, from head to toe, prior to putting on their clean priestly garments. In a similar fashion, prior to entering into the Covenant, all the people were to be sanctified by washing themselves and their clothes (Ex. 19:10). So in entering His public ministry, to neglect this detail would be incompletely executing righteous portions of the law.
(5) Righteousness is doing this, thus fulfilling His part of the path to reconciliation of the created by The Creator. (6) Exemplfying personal righteousness by completely satisfying the law in every respect is the witness that Jesus did for us what none of the rest of us could do for ourselves; to wit, to earn our way back into acceptance by The God through our own compliance to His standards.. (7) It was only through fully fulfilling performance to specifications--righteousness which is by the law--that Jesus qualified for the role of an acceptable substitutionary sacrifice. Now you can begin to understand the context of this Scripture:
"For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them" (Rom 10:3-5 AV).
Righteousness is primary. It prefaces and produces obedience and reconciliation (see Heb. 7:2-3).
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