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To: CynicalBear; daniel1212
No you didn’t and I apologize if that’s the impression I left. I was trying to say that the impression many will get is that baptism is necessary to gain salvation aka baptism is needed in addition to the shed blood of Christ for salvation.

Not a problem brother. What I observe logically is in Acts, which shows us what believers in Jesus Christ did in action, was after saving faith and receiving the Holy Spirit, they get in the water and are water baptized. I also see it as an act of obedience, but one done very soon after spiritual regeneration--being born again/above. I see water baptism as a proclamation we are making identifying us as a disciple of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Some add the term "sealed" and I understand what that means.

If we asked Christians in the early or mid 1st century if they thought baptism was required for salvation, I think they would laugh at us and ask "what was there a drought or something?" To them back them, with the evidence we have, those who proclaimed with their mouth Jesus as Lord and believed in their hearts then walked down to the closest body of water and were gladly baptized.

We see it here all the time. We have those who promote infant baptism. In order to promote someone who is not coherent to what is going on to be baptized, then they must say the act of baptism saves and regenerates. All other error follows from there and you and I and daniel1212 and many others point out the error. What happens is we as Evangelicals, Baptists etc. are defensive on Baptism because we know how cults and others get it Biblically wrong. So I think Evangelicals spend too much time downplaying baptism because of other false doctrines. When being water baptized is what early BELIEVERS (emphasized for a reason:)) did after putting on Christ thus proclaiming putting on Christ.

And this leads me to make the point I made in few posts in this thread. You can disagree with me, that is fine and we shall still break bread together. The point is because we apply apologetics so often against false doctrines, some have downplayed Peter and the 11 as partners in the Gospel of Grace by the shed Blood of Jesus Christ. That is what I think, I may be wrong, but if there is an explanation for Acts 2:38 as being a separate 'program' for Jews then what else will be dismissed to appease the arguments against those who pose obvious errors? This is not a jab at you or anyone else but something to think about. For whether you and others think there is another program within the same gospel, one thing is true today. We are all in agreement what the Gospel of Grace IS and we eat at the same table.

278 posted on 11/26/2013 12:18:51 PM PST by redleghunter
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To: redleghunter; daniel1212; smvoice
>> but if there is an explanation for Acts 2:38 as being a separate 'program' for Jews then what else will be dismissed to appease the arguments against those who pose obvious errors?<<

Acts 2:38 once more illustrates the difference.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

There again Peter is teaching that an act of man remits sin as opposed to Paul teaching that it’s Christ’s shed blood that our sins are remitted.

1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Equate baptism to circumcision in the next passage.

Romans 4:1 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness." 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: 7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; 8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin." 9 Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. 10 How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. 11 He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, 12 and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

Notice that he equates circumcision with works. Then read it again. We now have the seal of the Holy Spirit.

Now, if you place what Peter and the others are teaching into the time after the church is taken out of here and during the seven year Tribulation those texts apply and make sense.

279 posted on 11/26/2013 12:43:35 PM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: redleghunter; CynicalBear; daniel1212
What I observe logically is in Acts, which shows us what believers in Jesus Christ did in action, was after saving faith and receiving the Holy Spirit, they get in the water and are water baptized. I also see it as an act of obedience, but one done very soon after spiritual regeneration--being born again/above. I see water baptism as a proclamation we are making identifying us as a disciple of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Some add the term "sealed" and I understand what that means.

One must look past the Greek 'baptism' and see Mikvah.

A mikvah is performed to ritually cleanse oneself:
A mikvah is performed to adopt a gentile into national Israel.
A mikvah is performed when one enters into the discipleship of a rabbi.
A mikvah is performed in order to enter the Temple grounds.
A mikvah is performed in the ordination of a priest.
A mikvah is performed at the initiation of a life changing vow or ministry.

282 posted on 11/26/2013 1:15:27 PM PST by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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