Is the below what you are talking about?
Posted on 11/21/2013 11:02:12 AM PST by redleghunter
Paul calls for an examination in another passage and I want you to notice this. It's the last chapter of II Corinthians, Chapter 13, and verse 5, I want you to note what it says, Il Corinthians 13:5, just the first sentence, "'Examine yourselves, whether you are in the faith; (prove it, is what he's saying) prove yourselves." You say to someone "are you a Christian?" 'Yes.' What do you base that on? 'Well so many years ago I made a decision.' That means nothing. The Bible never verifies anybodies salvation on the basis of the past, It's always on the basis of the present, And if you don't have the evident proof of real salvation in your life now, there's a very real possibility you're not a Christian at all, no matter what happened in the past. So examine yourself, to se whether you are in the faith prove yourself. You say John' how do do that? How do I know if I'm really a Christian? I believe! (Maybe you've even been baptized.) I go to church, I, think I'm a Christian.' Look with me Matthew Chapter 5 and let's find out. When Jesus had arrived on the scene, the Jews had already decided what right-living was all about. They had already built their own code. They had already developed their own system, and they had it pretty cu and dried and pretty well laid out that this is what it was to be holy, and it was all external, it was all self-righteousness and works, and Jesus came and shattered that thing and He said I want to give you a new standard for living.
(Excerpt) Read more at gty.org ...
I agree. We see below in Luke 4 Jesus Christ proclaiming his first Advent and what will be fulfilled. He quotes from Isaiah 61.
Luke 4: And the book of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. And He opened the book and found the place where it was written,
18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, Because He anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor. He has sent Me to proclaim release to the captives, And recovery of sight to the blind, To set free those who are oppressed, 19 To proclaim the favorable year of the Lord.”
20 And He closed the book, gave it back to the attendant and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on Him. 21 And He began to say to them,“Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.”
I believe at this point Jesus was clearly pointing out He was not the conquering Messiah that many sects were yearning for. Here is the full passage from Isaiah 61 and we see where Jesus Christ stops the reading:
The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me, Because the Lord has anointed me To bring good news to the afflicted; He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to captives And freedom to prisoners; 2 To proclaim the favorable year of the Lord And the day of vengeance of our God; To comfort all who mourn, 3 To grant those who mourn in Zion, Giving them a garland instead of ashes, The oil of gladness instead of mourning, The mantle of praise instead of a spirit of fainting. So they will be called oaks of righteousness, The planting of the Lord, that He may be glorified.
4 Then they will rebuild the ancient ruins, They will raise up the former devastations; And they will repair the ruined cities, The desolations of many generations.
I know this was addressed to daniel1212. However, the quotes you gave were letters and not the sermons referred to in Acts.
Your comment once again.
>>>>Paul actually only uses the term "my gospel" thrice, (Rm. 2:16; 16:25; 2Tim. 2:8) but perhaps that counts as "several," yet he also thrice refers to it as "our gospel," (2Cor. 4:3; 1Ths. 1:5; 2Ths. 2:14)<<
The first three verses.
Romans 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my (mou/egó ) [Strong’s # 1473] gospel.
Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my (mou/egó ) [Strong’s # 1473] gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
2 Timothy 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my (mou/egó) [Strong’s # 1473] gospel:
(mou/egó) [Strong’s # 1473]
Word Origin: a prim. pronoun of the first pers.
Definition: I, the first-person pronoun. I (only expressed when emphatic)
The second three verses.
2 Corinthians 4:3 But if our (hēmōn/egó) [Strong’s # 1473] gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost 1 Thessalonians 1:5 For our (hēmōn/egó) [Strong’s # 1473] gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake. 2 Thessalonians 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our (hēmōn/egó) [Strong’s # 1473] gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
(hēmōn/egó) [Strong’s # 1473]
Word Origin: a prim. pronoun of the first pers.
Definition: I, the first-person pronoun. I (only expressed when emphatic)
According to Strong, Thayer, NASEC, and Englishman’s the Greek words used in ALL those texts mean the same thing. http://biblesuite.com/greek/1473.htm
Is the below what you are talking about?
Don’t you risk getting into the RC trap there in that we must be baptized to be saved? Do our actions save us or is it strictly the shed blood of Christ and His sacrifice that saves us and the act of baptism simply obedience? How many times have we heard them say that they are baptized so are saved. The RCC even says that because Protestants are baptized they are saved “just like them”. Paul teaches grace through faith in the shed blood of Jesus alone on what saves. The actions of man do not save.
>> Peter, the 11 and Paul all preach the same gospel as clearly outlined in I Corinthians 15.<<
As far as I know Paul is the only one to teach the following.
Ephesians 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Could you show me where any of the other apostles either taught or wrote that? Or are we injecting into what they said that teaching?
Did they preach something different than what they wrote?
It seems you take this to mean license where the rest of the law is concerned...
No, that is the whole law...If we love God and love our neighbor, we will have fulfilled the whole law...Unfortunately, none of us has ever committed to that law 100% of the time...Because our flesh is weak...
It is not a matter of license, it's a matter of liberty...And again, it's not a matter of the law, it's a matter of love...
Under the Torah we HAD to keep the law...Under the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, we WANT to keep the law...
It is not that we have license but when we fail, and we all do, we have an advocate with the Father...Our sin is not counted against us...Jesus however will give us a quick kick in the hind end from time to time...
Can we sin willfully and still be a Christian??? Yes...We ALL do whether we will admit it or not...
How do you justify that against this:
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
This is some heavy stuff...
One might notice that there isn't a Christian within the context...It is Jesus teaching Jews... I believe since the context is the Kingdom of Heaven, it is speaking of the Kingdom that was offered to the Jewish audience right there who were under the law but ultimately rejected Jesus as the Messiah...
Prophetically, it applies to the Millennial reign of Jesus Christ on Earth...AFTER the Rapture of the church...The church is gone, the Wedding has taken place and those in the Kingdom with it's Head in Jerusalem are those who come out of the Great Tribulation, who, again, will be under Faith and works/the law...
As the scriptures here show, they will again be under the authority of the Torah...And during that thousand year reign, every jot and tittle of the law will be fulfilled, literally...
As for vs. 20, my righteousness as a Christian does exceed that of the scribes and pharisees because I have the righteousness of Jesus who fulfilled the law...But that's a scary thought for those going thru the Tribulation...
But wouldn't the first evidence of having obtained that Spirit be a tendency to keep the laws of YHWH? After all, He has said the law is 'written on our hearts'... The natural tendency (what is in the heart overfloweth) would be to keep the law... to WANT to keep the law...
Exactly...
TRUE. But John says we know we love the Father (and our brothers) when we are walking in His commandments... So one can determine the quality of one's walk according to how closely one is following the Torah, no? How then does one disregard the Torah completely and claim to love the Father? It cannot be so.
I dont' think any Christians disregard the Torah...That where we learned what sin was amongst many other things...It's just that we are not under the penalty of the law when we fail...
With that I agee...Catholics sin so little they have only to go to confession once a year...Can you imagine??? Taking the Ten Commandments out of our schools was one of the worst things that could happen to Christianity...What should be black and white is now a shade of gray...
Folks are quick to haul out 2Tim 3:16 when they are verse-slinging, while failing to understand that the scripture defined therein was only the Tanakh, as the NT had not yet been written.
While that historically can be true, I believe it can and should be applied to all scripture since I believe the bible was not written for those only back in the first Century and before...
There is plenty of scripture written yet for the future...
Folks are quick to point out sin, without understanding that it must be the Torah that defines sin. Folks are quick to say they want to please YHWH, without admitting that it is the Torah that teaches one HOW to please YHWH.
I agree with that completely...The Torah was our schoolmaster...
I did not imply baptism=salvation. What I said was "if you consider repenting and baptism as 'works'." They are not, they are actions and not works according to law as Paul terms works. The very fact that believers repented of their sins and were baptized is evidenced in the NT. So yes if you are a believer get in the water as Christ commanded and the apostles reinforced.
No you didn’t and I apologize if that’s the impression I left. I was trying to say that the impression many will get is that baptism is necessary to gain salvation aka baptism is needed in addition to the shed blood of Christ for salvation. Paul was very clear in his differentiation with that concept while the other apostles stayed with a more Jewish concept of “repentance” and “baptism” was part of the “acquiring” salvation. Now don’t get me wrong. Paul also taught that repentance accompanied salvation in that those who by grace were saved would repent/change as a result of salvation.
Paul was the one who taught that salvation was strictly through grace by the faith of and in Christ. Any outward actions by man was the result of that salvation rather than any idea that it was precipitated by those actions.
1 Peter 1, the entire chapter is a very good reference. Even mentions born-again and the spotless lamb and the blood of Christ. Please start there. As with 1 John 1 also addresses the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.
I also mentioned in my last post that Philip preached from Isaiah 53 with the Ethiopian eunuch. The Suffering Servant.
BINGO
I will assume you may be missed some of daniel1212's posts. He clearly pointed out in two of them (it was clear to me)there were no differences in the sermons of Paul and Peter in Acts. Nor are there differences with the epistles of Peter and Paul. Paul no doubt is the master theologian and Peter is no doubt the master pastor.
What has happened in these threads are posters are using sermons of Peter in Acts and comparing them to epistles of Paul. When you compare epistle to epistle there are no variations at all. Just as daniel1212 pointed out the same call to repentance in Acts by Peter was also called for by Paul in Acts.
I kindly ask to review daniel's last two posts because the questions you are asking me and then responding to are addressed in them.
Peter teaching.
1 Peter 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth
Paul teaching.
Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"
Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"
Romans 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Do you notice any difference?
I’ve read them all. I’ll simply ask this, is repentance prior to or subsequent to salvation through grace? Put another way. Does repentance result in salvation?
Yes. the Times and Seasons of YHWH... to include also the Jubilees and the Sabbath. While dispensationalism and it's dispensations are close, these are what are actually governing the whole thing. If one even has an inkling of how the fulfillment occurred, with an incredible and profound precision, during the Spring Feasts, then one must equally be able to grasp what will follow in the fall... Shadows of things to come.
The holidays y'all adhere to are such a distraction from the truth. Not that they are necessarily diabolical in themselves, but that they are that distraction... Anti-Christ does not necessarily mean 'against'... Anti can also mean 'alternative to'. I would wager there is not a person on this thread who does not know every tradition involved in the Christian holidays... But I would also wager that few even know when the Holy Days that YHWH ordained even take place, not to mention having practiced any of them, nor learned their traditions. Thus the alternative displaces the ordained, making the Word of YHWH of none effect... And the ordained are stuffed full of prophecy, hidden from the eye of those who are distracted, as the spring feasts have proven.
Wouldn't a disciple of Yeshua, with the Torah written upon his heart, desire to keep the days that YHWH ordained for holy convocations?
I agree Paul wrote his epistles very clear, very logically and very convincingly. As I said he was a master of theology. But you can still find the same exact truth in Peter's and John's epistles. I have noticed, in particular, Peter uses almost a chapter worth of words to impress on people; where Paul takes a few verses. John on the other hand seems to be addressing mature Christians. His epistles are focused on "walking the talking."
No doubt Paul is the thorn in Rome's side. Because Paul explains everything clearly and methodically. That is why when we point out Peter and John say the same essential elements of salvation, the Roman argument retreats and takes comfort in tradition.
Not without injecting Paul’s teaching into them as I see what is happening. Yes, many can seem to extrapolate from the other epistles what Paul teaches that isn’t what is said in those epistles. It’s only by man’s attempts can it be said that they are both saying the same thing. Try reading all the other epistles while trying to ignore what you know Paul wrote and see if you come to the same conclusion. Not sure that’s possible but each time you think it’s the same as Paul is teaching question whether that is exactly what Peter and the others are really saying.
Not a problem brother. What I observe logically is in Acts, which shows us what believers in Jesus Christ did in action, was after saving faith and receiving the Holy Spirit, they get in the water and are water baptized. I also see it as an act of obedience, but one done very soon after spiritual regeneration--being born again/above. I see water baptism as a proclamation we are making identifying us as a disciple of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Some add the term "sealed" and I understand what that means.
If we asked Christians in the early or mid 1st century if they thought baptism was required for salvation, I think they would laugh at us and ask "what was there a drought or something?" To them back them, with the evidence we have, those who proclaimed with their mouth Jesus as Lord and believed in their hearts then walked down to the closest body of water and were gladly baptized.
We see it here all the time. We have those who promote infant baptism. In order to promote someone who is not coherent to what is going on to be baptized, then they must say the act of baptism saves and regenerates. All other error follows from there and you and I and daniel1212 and many others point out the error. What happens is we as Evangelicals, Baptists etc. are defensive on Baptism because we know how cults and others get it Biblically wrong. So I think Evangelicals spend too much time downplaying baptism because of other false doctrines. When being water baptized is what early BELIEVERS (emphasized for a reason:)) did after putting on Christ thus proclaiming putting on Christ.
And this leads me to make the point I made in few posts in this thread. You can disagree with me, that is fine and we shall still break bread together. The point is because we apply apologetics so often against false doctrines, some have downplayed Peter and the 11 as partners in the Gospel of Grace by the shed Blood of Jesus Christ. That is what I think, I may be wrong, but if there is an explanation for Acts 2:38 as being a separate 'program' for Jews then what else will be dismissed to appease the arguments against those who pose obvious errors? This is not a jab at you or anyone else but something to think about. For whether you and others think there is another program within the same gospel, one thing is true today. We are all in agreement what the Gospel of Grace IS and we eat at the same table.
Acts 2:38 once more illustrates the difference.
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
There again Peter is teaching that an act of man remits sin as opposed to Paul teaching that it’s Christ’s shed blood that our sins are remitted.
1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Equate baptism to circumcision in the next passage.
Romans 4:1 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness." 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: 7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; 8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin." 9 Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. 10 How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. 11 He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, 12 and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.
Notice that he equates circumcision with works. Then read it again. We now have the seal of the Holy Spirit.
Now, if you place what Peter and the others are teaching into the time after the church is taken out of here and during the seven year Tribulation those texts apply and make sense.
BINGO, again.
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