Posted on 11/21/2013 11:02:12 AM PST by redleghunter
Paul calls for an examination in another passage and I want you to notice this. It's the last chapter of II Corinthians, Chapter 13, and verse 5, I want you to note what it says, Il Corinthians 13:5, just the first sentence, "'Examine yourselves, whether you are in the faith; (prove it, is what he's saying) prove yourselves." You say to someone "are you a Christian?" 'Yes.' What do you base that on? 'Well so many years ago I made a decision.' That means nothing. The Bible never verifies anybodies salvation on the basis of the past, It's always on the basis of the present, And if you don't have the evident proof of real salvation in your life now, there's a very real possibility you're not a Christian at all, no matter what happened in the past. So examine yourself, to se whether you are in the faith prove yourself. You say John' how do do that? How do I know if I'm really a Christian? I believe! (Maybe you've even been baptized.) I go to church, I, think I'm a Christian.' Look with me Matthew Chapter 5 and let's find out. When Jesus had arrived on the scene, the Jews had already decided what right-living was all about. They had already built their own code. They had already developed their own system, and they had it pretty cu and dried and pretty well laid out that this is what it was to be holy, and it was all external, it was all self-righteousness and works, and Jesus came and shattered that thing and He said I want to give you a new standard for living.
(Excerpt) Read more at gty.org ...
As I see it, the doctrine at the beginning of the church was faith and the works that are included under the authority of the Jewish laws...
The law was righteous and those who kept the law became justified...
Paul revealed to this early church that a transition had taken place whereby Jesus is the only righteousness and belief in Jesus without the law replaced their earlier doctrine for justification...
Agreed. Such needless confusion.
Jesus righteousness was accounted to us. It is His righteousness that the Father sees in us. Not our own due to any effort on our part. Even the faith we have is His faith within us.
10 let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. 11 This is the ‘stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.’ 12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
I’m saying that Peter did NOT preach that Christ DIED FOR OUR SINS. He indeed preached that Christ died, was buried and rose again the 3rd day. TO SIT UPON DAVID’S THRONE. And to await Israel’s recognition of Him as Messiah, at which point He would have returned to set up His Kingdom. But they, as a Nation, rejected Him, once again. Have you ever wondered what would have happened to us Gentiles HAD the nation Israel accepted Him as their Messiah on the day of Pentecost? What would the natural progression have been. Remember, Peter had already stated in Acts 2:16-21 that the prophecy given by Joel (Joel 2:28) was being fulfilled before their eyes. From everything that was happening, they were INDEED in the last days that Joel had prophesied.
Me too. Although *not* the Jewish Laws, but rather the Law of YHWH... The Torah.
The law was righteous and those who kept the law became justified...
The Torah IS righteous... Yeshua is the Word made flesh... And *no one* *EVER* has been justified by the Law (except Yeshua).
Paul revealed to this early church that a transition had taken place whereby Jesus is the only righteousness and belief in Jesus without the law replaced their earlier doctrine for justification...
How then does Yeshua say "go away from me you workers of iniquity (lawlessness), I never knew you," if the Torah matters no more? Or is there a new law?
But then again, you may be right - And we should welcome the world into the church.... because if you are right, then the homos are right too... the liberal protestants hit the nail on the head - the law is done, and you can't pick and choose - Either the whole law, or none of it... So none of it. I guess.
Of COURSE the Torah still matters - without it there is no definition of sin. How does one repent if one does not know what to repent of? How does one go and sin no more? How does the Torah lead one to Yeshua if one never even reads it?
This is why the OP is critical - without Torah, there IS no obedience, because there is nothing to obey. How can that be right?
It isn't.
I know these may seem to be harsh words. However, when I see those putting up walls on certain scriptures to make pieces "fit better" I hear alarms and whistles.
We give the Romans a hard time for doing this very same thing. They are master Jedis at wrongly dividing the Word of God. The Ginsu knives are in their hands constantly. We bear the same mistakes if we separate Paul from the other apostles and claim there is a differnt Gospel message. Just as Rome ignores most of Paul's epistles except I Corinthians 11 because it is a "key" passage for them to peddle transubstantiation. Then they ignore the rest or appeal to a 'higher' man-made authority to figure out the rest.
So some pastors and theologians are in error to say they are "rightly dividing the Word" by saying Peter did not preach repentance and faith in the shed Blood of Christ saves. They want to exclude Peter and the 11 in Acts because they don't come outright and say "Grace" when the actual ACT by Christ IS Grace. Since Peter uses the words "Baptism" and "forgive" in the same statement, that for some becomes an inconvenient truth and then have to find a way to diminish what was really going on. Peter did A LOT of talking before the cry for repenting, believing and baptizing. And in that long sermon are all the key elements in all its "Jewishness" which is exactly what Paul preaches to the Gentiles and Jews in his epistles.
If we compare the sermons in Acts 2&3 and what Peter speaks to Gentiles in Acts 10 you will not see much of a difference:
Acts 10:
34 Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him. 36 The word which God sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ—He is Lord of all— 37 that word you know, which was proclaimed throughout all Judea, and began from Galilee after the baptism which John preached: 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him. 39 And we are witnesses of all things which He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem, whom they killed by hanging on a tree. 40 Him God raised up on the third day, and showed Him openly, 41 not to all the people, but to witnesses chosen before by God, even to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead. 42 And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead. 43 To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.”
Now were Cornelius and his household who believed, received the Holy Spirit and were baptized, did they receive the Gospel of Grace or of the Kingdom?
The Law was put in charge to lead us to Christ.
No one is ever justified by keeping the Law.
Read Galatians 2-3.
And just how does the Law lead you to Christ if you don't even know it?
How do the Holy Days lead you to Christ when you don't even know when they are, not to mention practicing them?
No one is ever justified by keeping the Law.
I just got done saying exactly that. Why then, does Yeshua say to do and teach the Torah?
Read Galatians 2-3.
So what?
I'm not interested in what pastors, theologians or really smart people have to say. I'm interested in what God's Word says. NOT what people THINK it says, but what it ACTUALLY SAYS.
BTW: IF Paul was preaching, teaching, proclaiming and doing everything Peter and the 11 were doing, why didn't God allow Paul to be made the 12th Apostle? WHy the need for another, if the message was the same?
Each of the Gospels were preached to a different group of people .. so I think it might account for some of the differences.
For example, Matthew preached to the Jews (and he made a lot of references to the Old Testament) with which the Jews would have been very familiar.
Each of the four Gospels had a different focus.
We have reached the point of fruitless conversation.
You know, the reason I see it necessary to make the distinction between the gospel of the kingdom and the gospel of grace is to understand why baptism is not a requirement for salvation and how our faith works out.
It does clear up some confusion in places where there is some apparent conflict, but since we are now in the church age, the age of grace, we can rightly conclude that baptism is not necessary for salvation, nor are works.
Salvation has always been by faith in Christ, whether looking forward or looking back. It would indeed be interesting to know how things would have turned out if Israel had accepted Jesus as the Messiah, but at this point, it’s just speculation. It didn’t happen and we’re here where we are.
It’s been an enlightening conversation, but I think I am going to just drop into just reading it.
The quickest way to put up a wall is to exclaim a promise that isn't yours. And then going about to protect and defend that promise even though Scripture that ARE for you refute your very beliefs. Tongues? There goes a wall between those who DO believe they are for today, and those who do NOT. Visions, miracles, faith healers? Walls go up everywhere. Baptism BY the Holy Spirit, IN the Holy Spirit, THROUGH the Holy Spirit? Walls again. While Paul plainly tells us the is "There is ONE body, and ONE Spirit, even as ye are called in ONE hope of your calling. One Lord, one faith, ONE BAPTISM, One GOd and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all." (Eph. 4:4-6).
The only way to take down those walls that divide is to rightly divide God's Word of Truth (2 Tim. 2:15). Once His Word FOR US is clearly defined, there is no room for the mish-mash.
"Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen." ( Rom.16:25-27).
“Peter here was simply telling them to call upon the Lord Jesus, as he had prior said they would be saved by, by confessing Him in baptism.”
Then you claimed this was consistent with that.
“For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. (Romans 10:10)”
In the first case Peter said “confessing Him in baptism”. In the second Paul said “with the mouth confession is made unto salvation”.
Do you really see those two as consistent?
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
If we follow these two commandments, we will have honored and fulfilled the law completely...
Gal_3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal_3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
People seem to always forget that the Christian has the Spirit of God living in them...A teacher, a guide...And there is a constant battle going on with the flesh...
Php_2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
How then does Yeshua say "go away from me you workers of iniquity (lawlessness), I never knew you," if the Torah matters no more? Or is there a new law?
Kinda...
Rom_2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
The law has become spiritual instead of legal...
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom_7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
2Co_3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
2Ti_1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
As I see it, the Torah was our schoolmaster...While we are encouraged to follow the Torah in our heart/spirit by Christ who lives in us, the Torah is no longer our judge and executioner...
Grace and Peace to you as well.
There will always be confusion without understanding the “mystery” Paul was given. Most try to place Paul’s teaching back into what Peter was teaching “assuming” Peter meant the same thing as Paul. If they knew nothing of Paul’s teaching they would never place “justification by faith apart from works” into Peter’s teaching.
It’s not often that we debate amongst ourselves...Thanks brethren for your input...It’s all good...
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