Did Martin Luther believe in the Immaculate Conception of Mary? (Tipping R.C. Straw men)

Beggars All ^ | September 30, 2010

[Wyrd bið ful aræd]

Nothing in your comment disproves my statements.

[Elsie]

I don't believe anything Luther said because Luther said it, I believe what Scripture says because Scripture says it.

Woof woof!

The vomit is MUCH better the SECOND time around!

[Elsie]

The point is that if one is entirely full of grace, there is no room for sin.

Nothing in your comment disproves my statements.

Much asserted - never actually proven.

[Elsie]

The point is that if one is entirely full of ... something; they will spout things they’ve read and/or been taught, without really thinking them through first.

[Iscool]

Nothing in your comment disproves my statements.

You could say that a person full of grace is a genius...Or you could say a person who is full of grace is extremely homely...Or you could say a person who is full of grace has 3 arms and 4 heads...

The bible doesn't say these things aren't true...

The bible does however tell us what grace is and gives some examples...Extra heads and sinlessness does not fit any biblical description of grace...

But alas...The bible proves you wrong...If the bible didn't address the issue you could have your religion which is mostly based on what God didn't say...Unfortunately for your religion, God says that ALL men/women have sinned...

So I have a choice...I can believe God or believe some Catholic Church father who is calling God a liar...

I chose God...You apparently chose to follow the liar...

[narses]

My soul magnifies the Lord,
And my spirit rejoices in God my Savior.
For He has regarded the low estate of His handmaiden,
For behold, henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
For He who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is His name. And His mercy is on those who fear Him from generation to generation.
He has shown strength with His arm:
He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
He has put down the mighty from their thrones,
and exalted those of low degree.
He has filled the hungry with good things;
and the rich He has sent empty away.
He has helped His servant Israel, in remembrance of His mercy;
As He spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to His posterity forever.

Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit.
As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen

Magníficat ánima mea Dóminum,
et exsultávit spíritus meus
in Deo salvatóre meo,
quia respéxit humilitátem
ancíllæ suæ.

Ecce enim ex hoc beátam
me dicent omnes generatiónes,
quia fecit mihi magna,
qui potens est,
et sanctum nomen eius,
et misericórdia eius in progénies
et progénies timéntibus eum.
Fecit poténtiam in bráchio suo,
dispérsit supérbos mente cordis sui;
depósuit poténtes de sede
et exaltávit húmiles.
Esuriéntes implévit bonis
et dívites dimísit inánes.
Suscépit Ísrael púerum suum,
recordátus misericórdiæ,
sicut locútus est ad patres nostros,
Ábraham et sémini eius in sæcula.

Glória Patri et Fílio
et Spirítui Sancto.
Sicut erat in princípio,
et nunc et semper,
et in sæcula sæculórum.

Amen.

She became the Mother of God, in which work so many and such great good things are bestowed on her as pass man’s understanding. For on this there follows all honor, all blessedness, and her unique place in the whole of mankind, among which she has no equal, namely, that she had a child by the Father in heaven, and such a Child . . . Hence men have crowded all her glory into a single word, calling her the Mother of God . . . None can say of her nor announce to her greater things, even though he had as many tongues as the earth possesses flowers and blades of grass: the sky, stars; and the sea, grains of sand. It needs to be pondered in the heart what it means to be the Mother of God.

(Commentary on the Magnificat, 1521; in Luther’s Works, Pelikan et al, vol. 21, 326)

[Gamecock]

A mighty fortress is our God, A bulwark never failing;
Our shelter He, amid the flood Of mortal ills prevailing.
For still our ancient foe Doth seek to work us woe;
His craft and pow’r are great, And, armed with cruel hate,
On earth is not his equal.

Did we in our own strength confide, Our striving would be losing;
Were not the right Man on our side, The Man of God’s own choosing.
Dost ask who that may be? Christ Jesus, it is He;
Lord Sabaoth is His name, From age to age the same,
And He must win the battle.

And tho’ this world, with devils filled, Should threaten to undo us;
We will not fear, for God hath willed His truth to triumph through us.
The prince of darkness grim — We tremble not for him;
His rage we can endure, For lo! his doom is sure,
One little word shall fell him.

That word above all earthly pow’rs — No thanks to them — abideth:
The Spirit and the gifts are ours Thro’ Him who with us sideth.
Let goods and kindred go, This mortal life also;
The body they may kill: God’s truth abideth still,
His kingdom is forever.

[Gamecock]

I commend you on at least quoting a primary source!
That being said, like the article points out, Luther’s position over the course of his life changed from his earlier stance.

[Wyrd bið ful aræd]

At the risk of repeating myself, nothing you said disproves my statements.

Grace helps you resist sin, but God will never force you to not to sin. If you commit sin, however, you lose grace, and are no longer justified. Mary remained never sinned, thus never lost grace and never reneged on her justification.

On the point of all men and women have sinned -- Jesus is True God, True Man. He possesses full Humanity. So did He sin...Or is it possible that you are taking the verse completely out of context?

Read Romans 3 completely.

[Wyrd bið ful aræd]

I can’t speak for you, but as for myself, I have something called a life. It involves responsibilities outside of an internet forum.

[daniel1212]

White provides technical refutation of the technical attempts to assert Lk. 1:28 makes Mary sinless, http://vintage.aomin.org/In_sententius.html, and in which is it also evidenced that RC do argue that Mary was the holiest of all women.

Considering the egregious extrapolation Catholics must engage in for their unBiblical Mary of tradition, and who is quite marginal in the gospels, imagine what she would end up being if she had just quarter of the amount of positive press describing Paul’s sacrificial labor of love.

[daniel1212]

While "all" relatively few times can mean less than inclusive, the fact is that, as said,

Holy Spirit characteristically mentions exceptions to the norm among notable persons, from great age (Methuselah), to excess size, fingers (Goliath), strength (Samson), devotion (Anna), diet (John the Baptist), to the supernatural transport of Phillip, the singleness of Paul and Barnabas, and uncharacteristic duplicity of Peter, etc., etc. and miracles when they are miracles.

Consistent with this, the sinlessness of the Lord Jesus is mentioned thrice. Therefore, as the Holy Spirit characteristically mentions exceptions to the norm, then unless He does then the norm is to be assumed. However, nothing is said of Mary being sinless. Nor among other things attributed to the Mary of Catholicism above that which is written, (cf. 1:Cor. 4:6) is being perpetual virgin in a unique marriage (leave but no cleave).

In the light of this lack of actual support, RCs attempt to argue from silence, that since the Bible does not say Mary sinned then it supports that she was sinless. Yet it also does not say Paul sinned after conversion, and following the Romish principle at work here, since Scripture does not say Mary lived to be 160 like Abraham, and parted the Red Sea, and Jordon, kept the sun from going down, and had 12 fingers on each hand, and could slay a thousand men with a jawbone of a donkey, and caused a 3.5 year drought, made iron to swim, and cleansed lepers, raised the dead, was supernaturally transported, etc., then Rome could decree these as infallible truths as well.

[metmom]

If you commit sin, however, you lose grace, and are no longer justified.

You are wrong. Scripture teaches otherwise.

Where there's no sin, there's no need for grace.

Romans 5:15-21 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.

Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

[Wyrd bið ful aræd]

"Where there's no sin, there's no need for grace."

There is always need for grace. Man is saved through grace ALONE. Mary was sinless, yet she too was saved by grace alone through the passion of Christ, same as the rest of us.

[Iscool]

There is always need for grace. Man is saved through grace ALONE. Mary was sinless, yet she too was saved by grace alone through the passion of Christ, same as the rest of us.

It's easy to say but you have absolutely nothing to back you up...

Mary was under the Jewish Law...She (according to your religion) being perfect had no need of any of the priests or their temple sacrifices (except we know that's not true, i.e., scripture)...Being perfect, she didn't need an atonement...

Adam and Eve didn't need an atonement, til they sinned...

[metmom]

Where there is sin, grace much more abounds.

If Mary had no sin, there was no need for grace in her life.

Since grace is unmerited favor, a sinless person is disqualified from being a recipient of grace because it’s not needed. The favor would be merited.

[Elsie]

I can’t speak for you, but as for myself, I have something called a life. It involves responsibilities outside of an internet forum.

Ok; but...

...Nothing in your comment disproves my statements.

[Elsie]

Mary was sinless, yet she too was saved by grace alone through the passion of Christ, same as the rest of us.

Oh??

---

Sinless Mary??

 

 

Luke 2:22-24

 

When the time came for the purification rites required by the Law of Moses, Joseph and Mary took him to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord  (as it is written in the Law of the Lord, “Every firstborn male is to be consecrated to the Lord”),  and to offer a sacrifice in keeping with what is said in the Law of the Lord: “a pair of doves or two young pigeons.”

 

Leviticus 12:7-8

 

Then he shall offer it before the LORD and make atonement for her, and she shall be cleansed from the flow of her blood. This is the law for her who bears a child, whether a male or a female.
'But if she cannot afford a lamb, then she shall take two turtledoves or two young pigeons, the one for a burnt offering and the other for a sin offering; and the priest shall make atonement for her, and she will be clean.'"

[metmom]

There is always need for grace. Man is saved through grace ALONE. Mary was sinless, yet she too was saved by grace alone through the passion of Christ, same as the rest of us.

If Mary was sinless, she didn't NEED to be saved as she was never condemned.

Only sinners need to be saved. The sinless can stand in the presence of God on their own merit.

If Mary never sinned, she wasn't a sinner.

[Wyrd bið ful aræd]

Mary was human, and all humans require the saving grace of God. Salvation is gained through grace alone.