Posted on 11/12/2013 1:54:03 PM PST by Alex Murphy
I could just say: “Read this magnificent post.” but being long-winded I cannot.
American Protestants, especially Evangelicals, are not loved by “outsiders.” Nobody writes romance novels about them they way they do about the Amish. Nobody thinks they have cool hair, the way they admire Orthodox beards. No movie like the “Bells of Saint Mary’s” has ever featured a pop star like Bing Crosby as a noble Calvary Chapel pastor . . . no “Pit Band of The Gathering” will ennoble the pop-religion of those strip mall churches.
Atheist wrath is so often directed against Evangelicals that popular atheist debaters ignore the rest of Christendom and focus on the beliefs of Evangelicals. That might be flattering to Evangelicals, but cultural loathing doesn’t stop with the irreligious.
Evangelicals are not loved by people who should be allies. Go to Europe and talk to a European Evangelical and one hears a quick disclaimer that they are not “that kind of Christian.” Hipster Christians oft define themselves as “not” very American, not very Evangelical, and not very Protestant. Hipster Christians are also no very hip and too often not very Christian, in addition to being not very numerous or influential, but that is another story.
No Catholic parish in my experience is so dead or divided over Vatican II that it cannot be snobby over the local First Baptist. A Greek church may only have all the membership turn up for the food festival, but at least they don’t have TV evangelists . . . and this is comforting when almost no cradle members come on the average Sunday.
Wouldn’t it be better to suffer TBN’s existence (that almost no American Protestant Evangelical watches) and have members who believed, read the Bible, and prayed?
You would think not to hear some triumphalists outside of American Protestant Evangelical circles.
But surely the very vigor of the American Protestant movement shows this group did something right? There is no virtue in simply being small and culturally irrelevant is there? Mass numbers lead to mass problems, but better to say mass to masses than to the angels.
I have personally met so many happy Protestant American Evangelicals that I know that they don’t fit the blanket condemnations.
As a happy member of an Orthodox Church, I might be able to escape this wrath, but I have always chosen (and still choose) to group myself with Evangelicalism: partly this is out of solidarity, partly because it is true!
Nothing says others cannot and do not learn from the Reformers!
Orthodoxy “missed” the Reformation for good and bad. There are issues raised by the Reformers and the Counter-Reformation that deserve Eastern attention. This attention is on-going in Christian dialogue between the Orthodox and Protestants and Catholics. To the extent that I understand those historic issues and follow the dialogues, I see great merit in the views of Lutherans and Anglicans, though within an Orthodox context. Evangelical Protestants are marked by a desire to share their faith, a very high view of Scripture, and a willingness to engage the modern world.
If you don’t want to see that kind of zeal in your church, I don’t get what form of Christianity you have adopted.
And yet there is danger in each virtue in our time:
- sharing the faith can turn into offensive proselytization
- a high view of Scripture can turn into “Scripture is the only book we read”
- a willingness to engage the modern world can produce piles of kitsch, syncretism, and means that contradict the message.
But better to risk errors by fighting the good fight, then to avoid embarrassment by rarely sharing the faith, ignoring Scripture, and hiding behind archaic structures.
If Cranmer could be burned at the stake as a Reformer, then everyone at my parish, which uses his liturgy with only a few modifications, owes a debt to the Reforming literary and liturgical mind. I would not cheat myself of the beauty of Milton, Rembrandt, Hooker, or Chalmers. Wesley combines a powerful mind with a zeal for God’s word: pity the church that does not read him.
When “great books” programs in non-Protestant schools ignore Calvin, Bunyan, or the great Protestant divines, they are parochial and cheat themselves. I know of no (dominantly) Protestant great books program that does not read Aquinas and Date, but Catholic programs skimp on Luther and Calvin.
A simple point is this: no Time Lord will move my parish to the seventeenth century and the battle lines of the seventeenth century have grown more fluid. On the pressing issues of the time, where the Christian faith is under assault, American Protestants, especially Evangelicals, are on the side of the angels and often almost the only foot soldiers standing with us. On the ground stands against theological confusion, Biblical illiteracy, communism, slavery, infanticide, and libertine morals have all been blessed by Evangelical thought leaders and foot soldiers.
I am on their side.
There is one annoying lie that I hope Sanders can kill.
I meet people who believe that American Evangelical Protestants are anti-intellectual. Some are, but general American culture struggles with anti-intellectualism. I never have met a single Protestant who did not encourage reading. They may not have read enough, but they read. Reading books (especially some Evangelical books) might not make you an intellectual, but it is a good place to start.
American Evangelical Protestants, at great cost, sustain a network of (at least) decent liberal arts colleges and universities. These come in a range of academic flavors, but are not a sign of intellectual engagement. Many repair cracks in the foundations.
American Evangelical Protestants publish and buy books on the Fathers (see Baker Books) and the Church Fathers (see the ubiquitous Hendrickson set). Lay people buy these books. If they are then too little read, they are out there. I would wager that more American Evangelical Protestants lay people own some John Chrysostom sermons, actually having read a few, than cradle Greek Orthodox!
I work at a Baptist school that is more likely to read the Medieval Catholics than many Catholic colleges.
Do the Baptists get credit for this?
Sadly, seventeen year olds in America overwhelmingly spend most of their day in high schools that totally ignore or misrepresent church history. It is hard to blame American Evangelical Protestants for being unable to remedy all areas of ignorance.
Sunday School cannot count on basic Bible knowledge . . . where would they find time to go much further?
There are some very bad Sunday Schools and youth groups, but even most of those take a stab at apologetics or big ideas (at least in my experience). Most have a passing knowledge of C.S. Lewis or J.R.R. Tolkien. When I speak in such Sunday Schools and youth groups, I find a large number very interested in philosophy and ideas.
It is rare (despite my odd theological pedigree) to meet students or parents who are “anti-intellectual.” America is starving them, but the American Evangelical Protestant church is trying to feed them.
One further personal example might help.
I am reading (slowly reading) my way through an English translation of Karl Barth’s Church Dogmatics. It was first recommended to me at a Pentecostal Bible college. The second time I encountered it seriously was an Evangelical college. Finally, I purchased it from an Evangelical publisher and began reading it this year.
There must be, somewhere, smallish groups of anti-intellectual American Protestant Evangelicals that mean to be anti-intellectual and glory in it.
I hope nobody would confuse those people with folk the American Protestant Evangelical churches have saved from the American social dumps. After all, American Protestant Evangelicals have churches in rural areas where most University grads would never go. Southern Seminary sends Greek reading pastors to tiny Texas towns where they work hard to elevate the moral and cultural tone of people that the elite despise.
There is no inner city where American Protestant Evangelicals are not saving folk from human trafficking, poverty, and the consumer culture that has them trapped in debt. Black churches fight for grocery stores in food deserts where only liquor stores can be found. It is fine to sniff that not all those saved from American consumerism and exploitation turn into intellectuals, but then why would they?
America gave them rotten government education and the American Protestant Evangelical church start where folks are and also struggles not to be overwhelmed with the dysfunctions of people who become full members. If you help the poor, you will always look “bad” in some sociological statistics.
Should American Protestant Evangelicals do a better job in finding their classical Christian roots? Of course, they should. But like warnings against “pride” (which are always relevant), I wonder if they are actually doing worse than everybody else. Does the typical lay Orthodox know the Fathers (or has he just seen the picture)? Does the typical Catholic get good catechism? If not, then why blame the American Protestant Evangelicals for an evil of our age?
Or is that American Protestant Evangelicals are large, growing, and noisy and so their dysfunction is obvious?
LOL! I knew a JW years ago who was convinced the JWs were the most hated group, and who took that as proof of a superior spiritual pedigree. Neither your assessment nor his are scientific. You’ve raised a quantitative question, and the only reasonable way to answer it is with valid quantitative data, which I believe in the nature of the case might be very difficult to come by. Satan hates everyone, but he hates Christians above all. Measure that if you can, but as for me, I wouldn’t even know how to begin.
Not sure about the truth of that -- skimped or not, Luther and Calvin do appear on at least one Catholic university Great Books program -- but if the charge is true, would it be surprising? Aquinas is a philosopher as well as a theologian, and, as a poet, Dante is in a different category from Aquinas or Luther or Calvin.
There is no inner city where American Protestant Evangelicals are not saving folk from human trafficking, poverty, and the consumer culture that has them trapped in debt. Black churches fight for grocery stores in food deserts where only liquor stores can be found. It is fine to sniff that not all those saved from American consumerism and exploitation turn into intellectuals, but then why would they?
Once again, I'm not sure about the truth quotient here -- how many of the people attacked (or the people attacking them) actually do "escape from American consumerism"? -- but in any case, the people who make those accusations are usually talking about "White American Protestant Evangelicals," and exclude their Black brethren. They won't deny the value of the Black church. It's the White one's they don't like. Of course, that's not a theological difference, but it's something very much on people's minds.
FWIW: The separation of Protestants into two groups in the public mind may have some disadvantages for Evangelicals, but look at it this way: people are quick to make claims about Catholics or Jews or Mormons or Muslims or whatever. Protestants only have to say, "No, that's not us, that's the other guys" -- Mainstream or Evangelical, depending on who's talking. That can come in handy sometimes, I guess.
I’m only measuring by the amount of negative news about the Catholic Church vs. other Christians.
I have no specific date, but I really don’t think you are being argumentative....for in the middle east, it does not matter is one is a Catholic or a Christian. They are killed and their churches are burned down.
Amen to that. I can testify.
But Jesus loves you and if God is with us who can stand against us?
Just the opposite.
You might not be aware of it, but the "rebaptizers" were killed by both sides during your Reformation. However, the Protestants emerged from this period more in line with our views than the Roman Catholics.
Interesting, yes, but sad.
“Our reformation”
I don’t think so....give Luther that credit.
“Our reformation”
Or did you mean Our counter-reformation?
No, Evangelical Christians are truly dispised by the media and Hollywood.
While you can see many negative portrayals and mentions of Catholics, you can also find many inspiring and spiritual, and respectful movies, articles, and TV portrayals, but not so for Evangelicals.
I would guess that even Catholic Christians flinch when the knuckle dragging, hate mongering, “burn in hell sinner” evangelicals come onto the screen in movies and TV.
A hero or the cool guy, can be a practicing Catholic or a non-attending and respectful Catholic, but he cannot be a Southern Baptist, or Evangelical, the reason is, to Hollywood, Evangelicals only mean one thing, unsophisticated, unfiltered, love of Jesus and the bible, there just not any room for cool in the left’s view of Evangelicals.
I’ve never seen anyone say that before.
Then you need to get out more. Many of us state it regularly, much to the average Catholic's chagrin. And they continue in denial about it, deigning to label everyone outside of Catholicism as *Protestant*.
So are evangelicals closer to Catholicism?
No, Evangelicals are closer to the Bible. Protestantism is closer to Catholicism
I think this is done for the obvious propaganda value. Many of my Roman Catholic friends and family were surprised the first time they learned that there have always been Christian churches that were never under the Roman, or Orthodox, yoke. Just one example of this is the Waldensians. The Baptistic values you find in so many Evangelical churches today can be found in a variety of Christian churches throughout history.
No, Evangelicals are closer to the Bible. Protestantism is closer to Catholicism.
In fairness to our Reformed FRiends we find some great theological insights from some of their most revered members. I think on the core issues of our faith we stand united. It's when we get into questions about baptism, sacraments vs. ordinances, church structure, and eschatology that we begin to differ, which to your point they tend to lean towards the Roman Catholics on.
No.
That's what I was thinking, not to mention that many of the mainline Protestant denominations have gone liberal in terms of Scripture, much like Catholicism in some aspects.
Additionally, the worship services in some of the Protestant churches tend to be more formal and structured than many of the Evangelical ones. Not that it's a bad thing. Just different.
Most of our Reformed and some Lutheran brothers and sisters also consider themselves Evangelicals.
I've been told that.
FWIW, my thoughts are if your church originated with State sanction it's probably not Evangelical and if your church's number one goal is to carry The Gospel to the world it is Evangelical. I hope our Reformed brethren and the few remaining conservative Lutherans don't view this as a pejorative comment. We share a common faith on the big things. We really are just talking about definitions for the various churches that comprise Christianity.
Not at all. At least not me. As a reformed Baptist I tend to emphasize what we have in common, without ignoring or trivializing what divides us. As I have said elsewhere, Christian first, Baptist second.
Amen to these thoughts!
Great post.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_Reformers#Precursors
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Waldo
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldensians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_States
That the media does pick out the RCC above any Protestant Church, as in the case of priestly pedophilia, is often true, due to it being one single large entity, but that is her boast as being the only One True Church®.
But this article is about Evangelicals, and the idea that the Catholic Church is hated by the leftist media more than evangelicals would be absurd. Why would the Left hate the RCC when they knew Evangelicals are collectively far more conservative , and a far greater threat in voting to the Catholics? And there are far more RCs liberal pols than evangelical, which is a term that is avoided by those in national politics.
But as seen here, "hate" to RCs can mean any opposition, and any source that says anything that impugns Rome in any way is likely to be maligned, thus they even dismiss all the surveys that show RCs as overall being liberal. a strange way to rally liberal venom.
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