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To: one Lord one faith one baptism
Good post. I agree with most of it. Where I differ is on Revelation and Israel.

And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.(Luke 21:24)

God is not finished with Israel.

Romans 11:

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

Of course Paul is mentioning Gentiles and Jews in the above passage.

You have stated to approach Revelation carefully because it is symbolic. I agree there are symbols in Revelation, however, like the OT prophecies Revelation will be 100% fulfilled as stated. God, as you would agree, has a 100% fulfillment rate:) That goes for OT prophecies yet to be fulfilled that are intended for Israel.

I understand your point about the seed of Abraham in the fulfillment of Jesus Christ. There is no other way to salvation other than in Jesus Christ. Where I part company is where it is stated Israel=Church. One can draw some very logical conclusions that is so, IF Revelation was never revealed. My point? We would all agree to some varying degree that Revelation was penned sometime after Pentecost and before the end of the 1st Century by John an apostle of Jesus Christ. When John received the Revelation, we would also agree the Church, the Body of Christ was already established as being apart from Israel and the Temple worship (even more so after the Temple destruction in 70 AD). Why then does Revelation not say Church when it says Israel? God goes into such detail on naming the tribes of Israel in Revelation 7. Why not just name the bishops or church regions etc. Why Israel if God did not mean Israel? Thought provoking.

Also interesting is the fact that any mention to church or churches are no longer seen after chapter 3 in Revelation. After that we have references to the scene in Heaven, the 24 elders, "the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb", "the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held", the sealed of Israel in chapter 7, "chosen" (elect) and "faithful" are named. No hint after chapter 4 of church or "ekklesia". Also, thought provoking.

For us to hand wave Revelation as a giant book of symbols is error in my opinion. For in Revelation we have the following in Chapter 4 before all the otherworldy stuff begins:

After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, “Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this.”

33 posted on 11/12/2013 2:06:00 PM PST by redleghunter
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To: redleghunter; F15Eagle; StormPrepper; The Ignorant Fisherman; RegulatorCountry

“God is not finished with Israel”

Of course God is not finished with “Israel”, but the question is “who is Israel”?

Galatians 3:29 “and if you are Christ’s, then you are Abrahams’s offspring, heirs according to the promise”
Galatians 6:16 “peace and mercy be upon all who walk by this rule, upon the Israel of God”
Romans 2:29 “he is a Jew who is one inwardly and the real circumcision is a matter of the heart, spiritual and not literal”
Romans 9:6 for not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel
Romans 9:8 this means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise who are reckoned as descendants

the Scriptures are very clear and the Church has taught for 2,000 years that Israel in the OT was a type of the Church and this mystery was revealed in Christ, where there is neither Jew nor Greek, but if you are “in Christ” you have been grafted into the one olive tree of the Israel of God, which is of Faith not flesh.

all Christians believed this up until the 19th century when “dispensationalism” came on the world scene. Calvin, Luther and Wesley all taught this historical Christian truth.

once it is clearly understood that the Israel of God is the Church, then all the dispensational blindness that infects many people’s understanding of Revelation be cured.

individual Jews can become believers and a small number have throughout history. but national Israel has been cursed for unbelief, and will never bear fruit again. Mark 11:12-25.


43 posted on 11/12/2013 5:17:41 PM PST by one Lord one faith one baptism
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