Religion stoush as questions are raised over communion wine hygiene (Catholic Caucus)

The Standard ^ | Nov 1, 2013 | Alex Sinnot

[RBStealth]

Australia: AN unholy headache is developing for major churches, with questions raised over whether sacramental wine passes hygiene standards.

Former Warrnambool mayor Frank McCarthy, a devout Catholic, is calling for the time-honoured tradition of drinking from a shared goblet during services to be scrapped.

Mr McCarthy said wholesale consumption of wine from the same chalice would not be allowed in any pub or restaurant and queried why churches were given an exemption.

The former businessman said the risk of spreading disease was heightened with a shared cup. “The rules and regulations surrounding beverages are pretty clear and no pub or soft drink seller would willingly allow the use of glasses for people to repeatedly drink out of,” Mr McCarthy said yesterday.

“Imagine if a publican said to four customers ‘I’m only going to pour one beer, so you’ll all have to sip from the one glass’.

“It just wouldn’t happen.”

He has raised his concerns with church officials in Warrnambool.

National Council of Priests of Australia chairman Eugene McKinnon said it was not compulsory for Catholic parishioners to drink consecrated wine.

[RBStealth]

Actually that would be that a few patients have transmitted AIDS to their dentists. ...And that is why dentists now wear masks and goggles whereas in the 60,70’s they didnt.

Although it is possible for a dentist to cut his hand and transmit it to the patient also.

Exposure to blood.

[Rum Tum Tugger]

When I became a Catholic 12 years ago, I raised this issue with a Deacon. I was told that the alcohol in the wine killed germs.

In any event, I’ve never picked up anything from the cup.

[RBStealth]

I think someone lipping the lower rim of the cup, in extreme cases, depending on the virus/bacteria etc, especially if they have a sore on that lower lip can transmit disease.

Also breath on that rim, TB is airborne dispersal, something deposited on the rim has enough time betwen others to infect another. And nobody will be able to correlate where you got it, or when.

Additionally, the alcohol in the wine, is not automatically swabbing the lower rim.

Of course, these are not especially great concerns for very healthy populations, but I’m not sure with illegal immigration in my neck of the woods that we are all a healthy TB free population.

[onedoug]

I hope you haven't gotten any cold sores. The Herpes simplex virus would be easily transmittable with a communally shared chalice.

[Charles Henrickson]

[Note: I am a Lutheran pastor, and this is a Catholic Caucus, but I am posting the following as a guest, with the permission of the opening poster, RBStealth, and the Religion Moderator, since it can be viewed as a friendly post and very relevant to the topic.]

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“Imagine if a publican said to four customers ‘I’m only going to pour one beer, so you’ll all have to sip from the one glass’. It just wouldn’t happen.”

Imagine if the Savior of the world, the Great Physician of body and soul, gave his disciples to drink all from the same cup, his cup, even though they each had their own cup in front of them at the table. That's what did happen:

"And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, 'Drink of it, all of you. . . .'" —Matthew 26:27

"And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, and they all drank from it." —Mark 14:23

If the one chalice ("common cup") is good enough for our Lord, it's good enough for me. And it's good enough for the Christian church, since that is the prevailing practice throughout the church throughout history. "Individual cups" are a recent innovation, and they do not derive from the catholic (in the best sense) tradition.

I have been a pastor (Lutheran) for over twenty years, and at the end of the distribution, after everyone else has communed, I consume what remains in the chalice. It has never caused me a problem. Indeed, the holy Blood of Christ is the medicine of immortality for both body and soul!

Besides which, even humanly speaking, the chalice is made of a noble metal, the alcohol has a disinfectant effect, and I wipe the chalice as we go. I think the little individual cups, made of plastic often, and handled on the edges by the Altar Guild, would be more likely to carry germs. And if you're concerned about where the most germs would be exchanged, that would be in the handshake line at the end of the service!

BTW, our parish also has the little individual cups on a tray, which I distribute after first going down the rail with the chalice. I don't make a battle out of chalice vs. individual cups, although in Bible class, etc., I have on occasion encouraged the use of the chalice, and have explained why.

[RBStealth]

All Good and Invited.

[bunkerhill7]

I included that Herpes first but then omitted it- same story no diseases linked to the Cup Of Jesus`s Blood- find me one news account wherein that attributation above is printed anywhere.

[RBStealth]

I scoured and couldnt find one doorknob or door handle story of one actual door being attributed to a cold or flu.

Must not be true.

[bunkerhill7]

dentist gives patients aids

http://aids2012.ucsf.edu/2012/07/19/how-the-aids-epidemic-changed-the-dental-profession-in-the-1980s/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/28/-w-scott-harrington-hiv-dentist-hepatitis-expose-patients_n_2974053.html
W. Scott Harrington, Oklahoma Dentist, May Have Exposed 7,000 Patients To HIV Or Hepatitis
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/240576/LAWSUIT-SAYS-FLORIDA-DENTIST-GAVE-AIDS-TO-A-6TH-PATIENT.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2173095/Thousands-patients-risk-HIV-dodgy-Denver-dentist-REUSED-syringes-12-years.html
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00001679.htm
http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Dentist-involved-in-AIDS-case-commits-suicide
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/dentist-killed-by-aids-may-have-infected-patients-1567451.html

[RBStealth]

your attention to detail is lacking here.
Its not transmission from a dentist, its transmission through not very sterilized equiptment.

In the case of Dr. David Acer of Florida, he HAD aids but the medical community is divided over whether he purposively like a serial killer gave it to his patients or whether is was through unsterilized dental instrument that he was using on himself. Its either or, because the medical community is perplexed as they consider dentist to patient transmission to be very rare, complex and hard to accomplish otherwise. But patient to dentist transmission is easily accomplished if the dentist is not wearing a mask or eye gear.

[bunkerhill7]

I`ll go for a blonde dental assistant.

[RBStealth]

http://southernorderspage.blogspot.com/2010/12/you-can-catch-more-than-h1n1-flu-from.html

When I was in Augusta, I celebrated the funeral of a college age woman who contracted the deadly Meningococcal Disease by drinking after her boyfriend from the same Pepsi can. She looked even worse than the child in this photo who has the same disease. Amputations are done to save the life of someone with this deadly disease.

Drinking from the common chalice was banned in our Diocese last year and for several months because of the fear of transmitting H1N1 flu virus by drinking after someone who carried it. There is a news story from Australia concerning the deadly Meningococcal Disease down under and the Church’s common sense approach to banning the common chalice.

http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/stories/s382700.htm

[JoeFromSidney]

communion by intinction is the standard at the parish in Detroit where our daughters are members. I think it's a lot better than drinking from a common cup, even when the cup is carefully wiped between communicants. And as noted above, it's one of the allowed methods in the Latin rite.

[terycarl]

drinking from the cup is entirely voluntarily done...the Eucharist is complete in either or both forms.......please stop telling people whay they can volunteer to do.

[RBStealth]

Please stop telling me....

Actually I agree with what you said, its voluntary and I didnt/havent advocated for the Church to take it away.

Look through what I wrote, I’m just advocating to others that it is unsanitary and a risk, especially in a more virulent flu season.

...And oh btw, my wife has a compromised immune system, so I’m a bit ahead of the curve.

So please stop telling me...

[onedoug]

I’m glad, b117, that you could find no attribution, but the risk remains viable.

RB, since hand to mouth transmission is more to the common cold, one would suspect doorknobs or handles being a pretty good source of transmission even if it hasn’t been studied directly. Transmission of the flu seems primarily airborne although hand to nose contact can do it as well.

Motto: It’s good to wash one’s hands often.

Good Day to You Both.