Posted on 10/31/2013 7:25:05 PM PDT by Phinneous
Now if it’s true that our dear Chabadniks are not seeking to evangelize both Jew and Gentile, putting them head to head with the core faith mission of Christianity, then someone please say so. But from the description above it didn’t look like it.
Anyhow, it matters to a crazy Christian like me when someone is given a false gospel. Knowledgeable Christians will take a light hand with respect to Jewish people. They will fulfill the mission of showing the gospel in an attractive manner.
However when we got preachers out there preaching against us then this is spiritual war!
And my personal thrust here? Same as Paul’s: I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. I would not be surprised to see the Chabad approach dissolve into a series of sarcastic remarks when faced with serious, thoughtful Christian theological assertions. But as for us crazy Christians, we still say God bless them (and as modern Israel has made manifest, we “pay” God bless them too).
And make that... clueless sarcastic remarks. What we see is just one example.
And, I say what I say, with the additional comment “what a pity for everyone.” It wasn’t Chabad that civilized most of the Diaspora territory where Jews have lived for the last 2000 years. The norm of the world is to hate, hate, hate Jews. This came to a near halt in America and it’s because it largely believed the Christian gospel. Even George Washington who was very bold about Christianity being America’s “blessed religion” personally wrote to a Jewish congregation in Philadelphia expressing irenic hopes for the Jewish people. It didn’t even have to wait for the modern premillennial Christian theology, as helpful as that has proven to the Jewish people. I am bemused by Jewish claims that all the fruits they’ve seen of Christianity is a bunch of pogroms. Even the tragic Inquisition, a definite nadir for Christianity, killed fewer Jews in centuries than Stalin in his officially atheist USSR did in decades.
So basically, our Jewish friends, please glorify the Lord as best you know how amongst yourselves, and if it means going to Jewish Eskimos then by all means do it and God bless you as you go. But when the issue of Judaism vs. Christianity is forced head to head, then Christians will speak up for Christ. But they won’t ever curse Jews, not if they are obedient to scripture. In fact Christians are told in New Testament not to curse anybody!
Chabad is a group that actually carries out the Jewish mission to bring non-Jews out of false religions like chrstianity and to the Noachide Laws. They're not the only group that does this but they're one of the biggest and best known.
Unfortunately, it looks as if such threads as you tried to start with this article must be caucused in order to prevent a mass-invasion of chrstians who remain as arrogantly and groundlessly convinced that their religion is the teleological end of Judaism as their predecessors ever did.
Well if there was something called “chrstianity” it would be false all right.
However Christianity is true, and the cross works as documented.
You haven’t gotten a single “chrstian” yet.
A Christian is here, however.
And anyhow, dear pal, what moves you to show up on definitely Christian threads and throw your pitiful little wet blanket in?
Phew.... lot of eating, praying, diaper changing, shvitzing, napping....and post-sabbatical dishes. I even spent a good, long time cleaning (to the best of my ability and visible spectrum) any possible bugs off of my spinach—in the way of the ancients—with Veggie Wash.
So HiTech, it was a good catch on “pride.” Though on Friday afternoon I thought you were merely referring to my yes, blatant barb and assertion of the Sabbath being Saturday. Now from your subsequent posts I believe you feel all Jews have a pride in being antithetical to Christianity...if I’m right, then you’ll probably also end up being right...
I was momentarily upset about my humble world-dominating posting being invaded, but I’ve done the same to non-Jewish posts in the past, so no harm no foul. AND, good background on Christian beliefs on The Lords Day vs Christian pro-7th-day-Sabbath sects. Good to know.
But like Zionist Conspirator said, it is a stated (mission?**) of Judaism to enlighten the world to monotheism and our individual responsibilities toward G-d Almighty, 613 commandments and their off-shoots (as ordained by the written and oral Torahs given on Mt. Sinai,) and 7 commandments for non-Jews, full stop.
**Not just a mission, but one of the actual commandments—here is one of many, many sites codifying the commandments for which non-Jews (you! :) are responsible: http://templemountcenter.com/Rambam7Commandments.htm
But we are certainly at odds. We will never accept your beliefs or scripture subsequent to our canon and traditions—which are not mere ‘nice-to-do’s. Rather a Jewish tradition has the weight of the written law (as ordained in the written law itself, again, just for Jews, so don’t worry yourself about dancing around the lectern with a Torah scroll in you hands on the day after the ‘Festival of Tabernacles, though you will find no explicit reference to this in the entire Jewish canon—darn perplexing ain’t it!?)
And Jews see your messiah as a heretic and false prophet.
The very best we can hope for is to out-nice each other and show how wonderful the competing dogmas are. Let Moshiach sort it out.
I’m jumping around a bit...sorry.
Re: Chabad— the other posters are correct. We strive to bring Torah-Judaism to every Jew no matter where, and in this day and age, 100% made possible by America, to preach to non-Jews who would formally respond with violence. Preaching the 7 Commandments for non-Jews, mind you, not conversion to Judaism.
It really must drive non-Jews and not-yet-religious Jews batty, by the way. We have rules that guide our lives from morning til night. How we wash our hands, tie our shoes, eat our food, the exact words we say while praying (fear not, beatnik Jews—there is a time for freestyle...) And we doggedly claim it’s all directly from and exactly how G-d wants us to do it— yet you won’t find it in the Torah explicitly, not even in Hebrew! When the heck will we give it all up and see the light? Never, ever. It’s the best. You are right, in part, that G-d is a G-d of joy. (of course, as you implied, of many other things as well.) But we Jews have an actual explicit commandment to be happy! It’s the best I tell ya.
Brief story— two brothers and chassidic masters in their own rights, were in prison. :( One brother was sad. His brother asked him why and he said that because of the waste bucket the prisoners in the cell use, he could not say his prayers since he was in close vicinity to it. When his brother reminded him that to NOT pray when in its presence was ALSO a commandment, he became happy—because he was therefore still doing what G-d wanted of him— and they began to dance. When the guard asked one of the other prisoners why the Jews were so happy, he was told that it was something to do with the waste bucket. “I’ll show them....” said the guard, as he took the bucket away, doubling their joy.
The point is, we have many, many commandments that connect us to G-d. Even non-Jews do (their 7 have their own offshoots.) We would/will never give up the direct connection to the King, G-d forbid. We are chosen (who wouldn’t want to be....) and are G-d’s sons and servants, in that order. We disagree irreconcilably with you. And there’s not much we can do about it, ey?
SO, pride still probably not in check, I carry on, though maybe I’ll just PM my Jew buddies when I see Christian posts with which I disagree. Or maybe not.
Hey Phin.
You wouldn’t “give up the connection to the King.”
You’d get closer!
Redneck.
And hey, those scriptures DO outline the way you ought to live. Christian theology is better planned than the caricatures made out of it by many Jews. Yes there are stumbling blocks in Christian theology for Jews, but there is no need to multiply the stumbling blocks beyond what they already are.
What the line of Pharisees that refused the Christ (some accepted — you are from the line that refused) got so hot and bothered over, is that this was God dressed in human skin telling them that a lot of their religious rules were nonscriptural and made up. He stole their show. Now when God wants to steal your show, that should be a pretty good clue that your show isn’t worth keeping.
I’ve followed Judaic thought enough to have a respect for where it is. If there was no Christ, that would be the best line available to mankind to take. However there is a Christ and I am personally in His supernatural sphere and can see the effects plainly in my life. Christ has reintegrated a shambles that was my life into a glorious whole that earnestly seeks God. The devil can’t do that.
Anyhow, Christianity teaches that the Old Testament was a training ground, and that its laws are tied to its covenant. But a new covenant came sealed by the sacrifice of the Christ. The way we learned to fundamentally live based on the Old Testament doesn’t change. But the worship framework does. It becomes much freer. Now anywhere you go you can pray. You can pray on the toilet or you can pray in a temple. I wouldn’t suggest purposing the toilet for serious devotions, but if the Lord puts something on your heart while there you can pray.
But I agree with you in general about happiness. A lot of Christians and Jews are doom-and-gloom. God isn’t that way. He chastises for a moment but then shows lovingkindness (Hebrew word is chesed, I believe — a loyal love) forevermore. A loving Father. What is missing from modern Jewish thought is the Son. (They do acknowledge Holy Spirit.) That is a modern reaction away from Christian practice, to try to make Judaism as non-Christian as it can be. And it is sad; it leaves Jews confused and spiritually marooned. Human philosophizing about God replaces what God actually is.
And, God bless you... but if you’ve acknowledged Holy Spirit then you already have gone on the road that explains the Christian trinity. I understand that in modern Jewish thought the Holy Spirit is an “attribute” of God. But that wasn’t an “attribute of God” talking to Moses out of that burning bush. That was a person, He conversed with Moses. Attributes don’t act like persons.
And, some earlier, pre-Christian rabbinical thought allowed for a divine son as well, based on scriptural hints that implied a person with divine attributes standing distinct from the Father. That thought was abandoned when Jesus of Nazareth presented himself and clashed with the establishment. The establishment was all that was left (the rest became Christians and peeled off).
What Christians say is, look at this Jesus. This is it! Doo wop! That’s the son! As much a person as that Holy Spirit who talked to Moses!
Thank you for doubling down on nice!
You are mistaken about the ‘Holy Spirit’ (which I’ve come to realize Christians take from the Hebrew phrase “ruakh hakodesh” (holy wind....hey, maybe the Japanese borrow their spirituality from Judaism too?)
And you are mistaken about what credence Judaism gives to a son (of God, G-d forbid, or otherwise.) Our knowledge of the essence of G-d (I believe you used ‘Godhead,’ which is a decent starting point) is vastly different from yours. Our knowledge of His lofty or ‘otherly’ heights and how He connects with, interacts with, and encompasses our ‘lowly’ world is distinct and irreconcilable with your claims.
What Jews say and have done in a literally unbroken chain since Abraham our Father—and OBTW our tradition is deeper—we know that Abraham attended “yeshiva (Torah school)” in the academy of the son and grandson of Noah...what we have done and kept as the “commandments” is precise and perfect. Do you know that we write volumes, splitting hairs, on exactly how to bless “thank” G-d for various different kinds of food that we enjoy in His world—before and after eating— and we do it all to prevent saying G-d’s name(s) in vain or incorrectly? Think of a whole semester of college-level coursework to perfect what you say before and after eating...memorized with song as a child and ‘grown into’ in understanding and personal meaning as an adult. Our “Bible study” is not the same...
The Real Rabbis of Kabbalah (their wives don’t say much...) are men who this very day study and meditate on how G-d’s very “Let there be...” is still creating our world at every moment. Jews know why we have computers when G-d never said ‘let there be computers...” Where did stones come from if G-d didn’t say in the Five Books of Moses “let there be stones too....” We know why and how the 613 commandments, 248 positive and 365 negative, correspond to the bones and major sinews and cartilage of the human body. We study this, each to his own level, but certainly enough to live exactly as we should— albeit with room for and a commandment for constant improvement—and exactly as G-d has ordained for us.
The Torah is unfathomable to non-Jews. How do you know what kind of fringes to tie to the corners of your garments? How do you know what words to “speak of at home and away?” How do you reconcile a Sabbath or not lighting a fire in your tents—unlike the poor Karites who sat in the dark and ate cold food...without Jews and our written and oral Torah? What do you bind as a sign upon your arm and wear as a ‘frontlet’ (or however KJV Bible translates it) between your eyes? It is very easily cast away by anyone— now or at the turbulent time of the Roman destruction and expulsion— to cast away as “un-keepable.” G-d forbid. We keep the Torah exactly as we should and that includes waiting for Moshiach every single day. He’s coming tonight. And if he doesn’t, G-d forbid, then he’s coming before I wake up. A Jew lives on a consciousness that a commandment-shunning co-coreligionist can’t understand.
Dude— the good news is— you don’t have to keep to what I do... Just 7: http://www.chabad.org/kabbalah/article_cdo/aid/380332/jewish/The-Mitzvot-of-Non-Jews.htm
Why oh why (I know you have a retort but I tell you it’s oozing with the emotions and sentiments that existed at the time of the progenitors of Christianity) and who oh who would believe in a G-d that packs up and leaves, nullifying His words that He spoke to His people? Let My people go so that they shall serve Me on this mountain. Who would leave this team? (Insert your own In-it-to-win-it motto here.) The original post is about 5000+ rabbis who are in it to end the exile (in other translations, the exile of the Holy Spirit, but I won’t entertain your dogma of what that could entail) and who train their children almost militaristic-ly to fight G-d’s war (against the lack of knowledge of Him, revealing Him in the world.) WE LOVE THIS MISSION. I’m taking my own time from today’s dishes, and toys to put away, and daily portions to study...and the Florida insurance licensing test-—Jew’s gotta make a buck right?.... to post. I love Yiddishkeit (Judaism) and we all love it. You have an image of a Jew of yesteryear. We’re at the end of the ‘gallus’ (exile.)
I hope you’ve enjoyed my musings.... I’m looking for the Jewish Rubio, Paul, and Lee at this time..... (ie, gotta run and end my soap-boxing.)
All the best
Phinneous
I sure don’t want to give you a picture of a God that packs up and leaves.
I want to give you a picture of a God that comes closer.
The Hebraic-ignorant conduct of most of modern Christendom, which is sad, is partly because the Jews dropped the ball on it. The spotlight shifted to the Gentiles who promptly dropped most of the Judaic elements and allowed their own idiosyncratic accretions. I’d tell a Jewish person, please don’t complain about dropping the ball on the Savior, then finding the faith of said Savior to be mismanaged. Modern Jewish Christian movements attempt with varying amounts of success to recapture it. There are still problems. For one thing they shouldn’t have rabbis, but do, in an attempt to look more Jewish. If Jesus said don’t be called rabbi, they should take it at face value. Something like the Qoheleth of Ecclesiastes would be more fitting... and no, they shouldn’t be coy about the Cross either.
I do believe you feel a close spiritual approach to the Lord and the praising of the Lord which is so common to the Chabad movements is a key part of this.
I have been a Christian pianist for almost 25 years. Music means something. Even if you’re an unbeliever in the Christian sense, if you address song and music and praise to God, something good will begin to happen. That is moving out of yourself and into the realm of God’s spirit. One of the Chasidic songs I really see this in is “Sha! Shtil!” in an arrangement by Pinchas Jassinowsky (sp?).
Anyhow, the post of rabbi (”great one”) is something that wasn’t commanded in scripture.
I respect the spirit seen in Jewish mythologies, like the one you shared about Noah. It is way better than being semi-agnostic which is how a lot of modern Jews act. Better a wrong spirituality than none at all, because God can correct a wrong one. I don’t agree all those mythologies are true. “Rabbi” is self glorification, to put it bluntly. In actual recorded history, as opposed to spiritual mythologies, rabbis are an artifact of the first exile, when Jews were temporarily bereft of a temple.
I would imagine that, yes, there is something about the Old Testament that no gentile could appreciate fully. One would have had to actually be there and do that in order to get the full wash of God’s spirit as He operated. Imagination can impart some of the sense, but it couldn’t impart all.
Anyhow...
Even if you disagree with me about the role of the Son... look at my Freep page and check out my poem “Don’t Try To Put The Lion Of Judah In A Cage.” I think you’d agree with the whole thing, though from a different point of view than mine. Feel free to use it, even, in a Jewish milieu, with my blessings. (But I request that you keep copyright notice on it.)
I didn’t do this poem in an attempt to be inauthentic. God put it distinctly upon my heart to write it. I had a tune in mind for it too but it would be more characteristically gentile Christian than Jewish. Christendom embraces the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. It’s not for naught that Christendom accepted the entire written Hebrew scriptures, even those that are not daily referenced in synagogues today.
Anyhow, knowledgeable Christians continue to ask God’s blessings upon the Jews. They represent a separate historical thread of God’s plan. Some assert that with the formation of the Christian church, Judaism got absorbed into it and ceases to be relevant. I apologize to you for any Christian teaching you may have heard to that effect. I burn with indignation: that’s just wrong. God specializes in blessing hard cases (I was one) and if there were no hard cases around to bless, how could He do that?
Anyhow I wish God’s peace and blessings to you.
I said a lot, not all. Don’t take me wrong here and then shoot off to Mars, rocket buddy. And attitudes differed among the Pharisees. Some had a spirit honestly directed towards God, and some were in it for their own glory.
The great thing about the actual Christian gospel (and its implementation in many modern Christian congregations is pretty sad-sack... in particular they’ve really dropped the ball on how the gospel can deliver homosexual offenders) is that it takes negative commands and says instead “Be righteous.” The quote from Hillel becomes the positive Golden Rule. We have God at full strength salvational power now with a promise sealed with a once-for-all sacrifice. This was too dangerous to reveal to the world earlier, and even now it has big problems. Look at how, for example, Roman Catholicism has muffed it, being so preoccupied with sins that it virtually forgets deliverance. But that is what Christ is... a deliverance. Full and free.
Well anyhow... I’m on fire now and if I can tell the Christian world even one thing, it’s get yourselves out of the sad sack gospel zone by grabbing onto God full strength and earnestly desiring the fulfillment of God’s promises. And for Jews, if you disagree with Christianity, at least consider that most of modern Christendom has a sad-sack gospel. One day you Jews will be the very people to show the world that the gospel is NOT sad-sack!
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