Posted on 10/19/2013 8:50:26 PM PDT by jodyel
But it has and it does. It contradicts Scripture at every turn and contradicts itself almost as much.
That's why Catholics have to cherry pick verses of Scripture to use them out of context to support even a little bit of Catholic doctrine.
"The time has come," the Walrus said,
"To talk of many things:
Of shoes--and ships--and sealing-wax--
Of cabbages--and kings--
And why the sea is boiling hot--
And whether pigs have wings."
++++
/super s
I'm not even going to discuss this drivel. BTW, when do you sleep, or is this a rotating assignment? I think I'm going to look over the records of this discourse. But generally, you could have just given us the page number or item number of the Greater Catechism?
Your refusal to do so only indicates that you have nothing but specious accusations to throw out at someone.
Thank you.
Montfort was declared to be a "saint". But what he taught (at the link provided) was blasphemous, as you pointed out.
From you? Why should I be interested in the opinions of a vanquished foe? No need to answer that...it was just a rhetorical question.
It did not look like a question. The heresy in question is Protestantism: the false belief that salvation is by faith alone (despite, for example, James 2:17-26, Romans 2:6-10, Matthews 25:31-46) and that the rule of faith is contained in the Bible alone (despite the lack of such statement in the Bible, and in light of Matthew 16:16-19, 18:17-19, Luke 22:31-32, Acts 20:28). This heresy, when persisted despite correction from the Bible, prevents the salvation of the Protestant Christians, for the entire faith is necessary for salvation, not fragments of it (John 6:29, Matthew 7:21).
If you are going to slander the Holy Church, you will be asked to substantiate. I read thousands of post with scripture from you so far, and none contained anything that is not a Catholic teaching.
I took the conversation with you seriously; it is regrettable that you did not reciprocate.
Protestantism, -- see post 445. I thought it was clear from context. See also the Canons of Trent.
Houston: We have a problem...
As regards the oft-quoted Mt. 16:18, note the bishops promise in the profession of faith of Vatican 1,
Likewise I accept Sacred Scripture according to that sense which Holy mother Church held and holds, since it is her right to judge of the true sense and interpretation of the holy scriptures; nor will I ever receive and interpret them except according to the unanimous consent of the fathers. — http://mb-soft.com/believe/txs/firstvc.htm
Yet as the Dominican cardinal and Catholic theologian Yves Congar O.P. states,
Unanimous patristic consent as a reliable locus theologicus is classical in Catholic theology; it has often been declared such by the magisterium and its value in scriptural interpretation has been especially stressed. Application of the principle is difficult, at least at a certain level. In regard to individual texts of Scripture total patristic consensus is rare...One example: the interpretation of Peter’s confession in Matthew 16:16-18. Except at Rome, this passage was not applied by the Fathers to the papal primacy; they worked out an exegesis at the level of their own ecclesiological thought, more anthropological and spiritual than juridical. — Yves M.-J. Congar, O.P., p. 71
And Catholic archbishop Peter Richard Kenrick (1806-1896), while yet seeking to support Peter as the rock, stated that,
“If we are bound to follow the majority of the fathers in this thing, then we are bound to hold for certain that by the rock should be understood the faith professed by Peter, not Peter professing the faith.” — Speech of archbishop Kenkick, p. 109; An inside view of the vatican council, edited by Leonard Woolsey Bacon.
Your own CCC allows the interpretation that, “On the rock of this faith confessed by St Peter, Christ build his Church,” (pt. 1, sec. 2, cp. 2, para. 424), for some of the ancients (for what their opinion is worth) provided for this or other interpretations.
• Ambrosiaster [who elsewhere upholds Peter as being the chief apostle to whom the Lord had entrusted the care of the Church, but not superior to Paul as an apostle except in time], Eph. 2:20:
Wherefore the Lord says to Peter: 'Upon this rock I shall build my Church,' that is, upon this confession of the catholic faith I shall establish the faithful in life. — Ambrosiaster, Commentaries on Galatians—Philemon, Eph. 2:20; Gerald L. Bray, p. 42
• Augustine, sermon:
"Christ, you see, built his Church not on a man but on Peter's confession. What is Peter's confession? 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' There's the rock for you, there's the foundation, there's where the Church has been built, which the gates of the underworld cannot conquer. — John Rotelle, O.S.A., Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine , © 1993 New City Press, Sermons, Vol III/6, Sermon 229P.1, p. 327
Upon this rock, said the Lord, I will build my Church. Upon this confession, upon this that you said, 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God,' I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not conquer her (Mt. 16:18). — John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City, 1993) Sermons, Volume III/7, Sermon 236A.3, p. 48.
• Augustine, sermon:
For petra (rock) is not derived from Peter, but Peter from petra; just as Christ is not called so from the Christian, but the Christian from Christ. For on this very account the Lord said, 'On this rock will I build my Church,' because Peter had said, 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.' On this rock, therefore, He said, which thou hast confessed, I will build my Church. For the Rock (Petra) was Christ; and on this foundation was Peter himself built. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Christ Jesus. The Church, therefore, which is founded in Christ received from Him the keys of the kingdom of heaven in the person of Peter, that is to say, the power of binding and loosing sins. For what the Church is essentially in Christ, such representatively is Peter in the rock (petra); and in this representation Christ is to be understood as the Rock, Peter as the Church. — Augustine Tractate CXXIV; Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers: First Series, Volume VII Tractate CXXIV (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf107.iii.cxxv.html)
• Augustine, sermon:
And Peter, one speaking for the rest of them, one for all, said, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God (Mt 16:15-16)...And I tell you: you are Peter; because I am the rock, you are Rocky, Peter-I mean, rock doesn't come from Rocky, but Rocky from rock, just as Christ doesn't come from Christian, but Christian from Christ; and upon this rock I will build my Church (Mt 16:17-18); not upon Peter, or Rocky, which is what you are, but upon the rock which you have confessed. I will build my Church though; I will build you, because in this answer of yours you represent the Church. — John Rotelle, O.S.A. Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City Press, 1993), Sermons, Volume III/7, Sermon 270.2, p. 289
• Augustine, sermon:
Peter had already said to him, 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' He had already heard, 'Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona, because flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of the underworld shall not conquer her' (Mt 16:16-18)...Christ himself was the rock, while Peter, Rocky, was only named from the rock. That's why the rock rose again, to make Peter solid and strong; because Peter would have perished, if the rock hadn't lived. — John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City, 1993) Sermons, Volume III/7, Sermon 244.1, p. 95
• Augustine, sermon:
...because on this rock, he said, I will build my Church, and the gates of the underworld shall not overcome it (Mt. 16:18). Now the rock was Christ (1 Cor. 10:4). Was it Paul that was crucified for you? Hold on to these texts, love these texts, repeat them in a fraternal and peaceful manner. — John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City Press, 1995), Sermons, Volume III/10, Sermon 358.5, p. 193
• Augustine, Psalm LXI:
Let us call to mind the Gospel: 'Upon this Rock I will build My Church.' Therefore She crieth from the ends of the earth, whom He hath willed to build upon a Rock. But in order that the Church might be builded upon the Rock, who was made the Rock? Hear Paul saying: 'But the Rock was Christ.' On Him therefore builded we have been. — Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1956), Volume VIII, Saint Augustin, Exposition on the Book of Psalms, Psalm LXI.3, p. 249. (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf108.ii.LXI.html)
• Augustine, in “Retractions,”
In a passage in this book, I said about the Apostle Peter: 'On him as on a rock the Church was built.'...But I know that very frequently at a later time, I so explained what the Lord said: 'Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church,' that it be understood as built upon Him whom Peter confessed saying: 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,' and so Peter, called after this rock, represented the person of the Church which is built upon this rock, and has received 'the keys of the kingdom of heaven.' For, 'Thou art Peter' and not 'Thou art the rock' was said to him. But 'the rock was Christ,' in confessing whom, as also the whole Church confesses, Simon was called Peter. But let the reader decide which of these two opinions is the more probable. — The Fathers of the Church (Washington D.C., Catholic University, 1968), Saint Augustine, The Retractations Chapter 20.1:.
• Basil of Seleucia, Oratio 25:
'You are Christ, Son of the living God.'...Now Christ called this confession a rock, and he named the one who confessed it 'Peter,' perceiving the appellation which was suitable to the author of this confession. For this is the solemn rock of religion, this the basis of salvation, this the wall of faith and the foundation of truth: 'For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Christ Jesus.' To whom be glory and power forever. — Oratio XXV.4, M.P.G., Vol. 85, Col. 296-297.
• Bede, Matthaei Evangelium Expositio, 3:
You are Peter and on this rock from which you have taken your name, that is, on myself, I will build my Church, upon that perfection of faith which you confessed I will build my Church by whose society of confession should anyone deviate although in himself he seems to do great things he does not belong to the building of my Church...Metaphorically it is said to him on this rock, that is, the Saviour which you confessed, the Church is to be built, who granted participation to the faithful confessor of his name. — 80Homily 23, M.P.L., Vol. 94, Col. 260. Cited by Karlfried Froehlich, Formen, Footnote #204, p. 156 [unable to verify by me].
• Cassiodorus, Psalm 45.5:
'It will not be moved' is said about the Church to which alone that promise has been given: 'You are Peter and upon this rock I shall build my Church and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.' For the Church cannot be moved because it is known to have been founded on that most solid rock, namely, Christ the Lord. — Expositions in the Psalms, Volume 1; Volume 51, Psalm 45.5, p. 455
• Chrysostom (John) [who affirmed Peter was a rock, but here not the rock in Mt. 16:18]:
Therefore He added this, 'And I say unto thee, Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church; that is, on the faith of his confession. — Chrysostom, Homilies on the Gospel of Saint Matthew, Homily LIIl; Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf110.iii.LII.html)
• Cyril of Alexandria:
When [Peter] wisely and blamelessly confessed his faith to Jesus saying, 'You are Christ, Son of the living God,' Jesus said to divine Peter: 'You are Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church.' Now by the word 'rock', Jesus indicated, I think, the immoveable faith of the disciple.”. — Cyril Commentary on Isaiah 4.2.
• Origen, Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew (Book XII):
“For a rock is every disciple of Christ of whom those drank who drank of the spiritual rock which followed them, 1 Corinthians 10:4 and upon every such rock is built every word of the church, and the polity in accordance with it; for in each of the perfect, who have the combination of words and deeds and thoughts which fill up the blessedness, is the church built by God.'
“For all bear the surname ‘rock’ who are the imitators of Christ, that is, of the spiritual rock which followed those who are being saved, that they may drink from it the spiritual draught. But these bear the surname of rock just as Christ does. But also as members of Christ deriving their surname from Him they are called Christians, and from the rock, Peters.” — Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew (Book XII), sect. 10,11 ( http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/101612.htm)
• Hilary of Potier, On the Trinity (Book II): Thus our one immovable foundation, our one blissful rock of faith, is the confession from Peter's mouth, Thou art the Son of the living God. On it we can base an answer to every objection with which perverted ingenuity or embittered treachery may assail the truth."-- (Hilary of Potier, On the Trinity (Book II), para 23; Philip Schaff, editor, The Nicene & Post Nicene Fathers Series 2, Vol 9.
Poor baby...
I'm not here to win a debate, but to proclaim Biblical truth. The Roman organization did not write the Bible. God did, by special revelation of every word to His selected individual speakers and writers, none of whom ever heard of a Catholic Church (proper noun) nor of a See, nor of an episcopacy. So I'm not taking the bait.
The heresy of "Protestantism"? (whatever the heck that is)
You cite Paul from the second chapter of the book written to the Romans, yet seem to have failed to read on to the next chapter.
From there (among much other highly condemnatory of your own seeming positions, given your citing of cherry-picked "works" scripture passages);
28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.
But you are correct in that I have no questions for you. You are dismissed.
But they will deny that you did so [wait for it]
.
.
in their feelings
We already discussed that. There is certain room for interpretation of papal primacy, — from the Orthodox understanding of mere primacy of honor to the Catholic concept of papal supremacy in matters of faith and morals, that is in both cases in accordance with the consensus of the Fathers. As to the quotes about the Rock being Christ onto which the papacy is grafted, and about what matters is St. Peter’s confession rather than his person apart from his faith, — that is the Catholic view as well.
The Church indeed did not write the entire Bible; however, Catholic clergymen, which the Holy Apostles and the Evangelists were wrote the New Testament; it is the Church as a whole, — Catholic, of course, for there is no other, that edited and canonized certain books while not canonizing the others. It is also the Church that explained the Old Testament and made it a part of the Christian Canon. All that was indeed done under the dictation and leadership of the Holy Spirit that has lead and forever leads my Holy Church.
Protestantism is not true to the scripture, despite its arrogant claims. As I pointed out to you, the fundamentals of Protestant faith, as opposed to the Catholic component that the Protestants have also kept, — Sole Fide and Sola Scripture, that it, — are flatly contradicted by the Holy Scripture.
I am familiar with the Protestant behavior of making an appearance of scriptural debate while in fact deflectinbg the scriptural argument against the heresy of Protestantism. Your claims about “bait” fall into the pattern. I did not “bait” you. I am evangelizing you. And you resist.
The entire Epistle to the Romans is consistent with Romans 2, and Matthews 25. The part that you quote explains the Catholic teaching that works of the law, especially Jewish Law, do not save, because they are not what the New Testament consistently calls “good works” (Matthew 5:16, Ephesians 2:10, Titus 3:14 and many similar). It is the “good works”, — done of faith and of love to God and man — that are necessary for salvation. Circumcision (the focus of the Romans) or other works of obligation, or done for hire, do not save. Re-read the canons of Trent to learn what the Catholic Church teaches, then compare it to the teaching in Romans, and you will be surprised at the match.
Let's take a look at a portion of the broader context for Ephesians 2
5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ —by grace you have been saved—
6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7 so that in the ages to come he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God—
9 not the result of works, so that no one may boast.
10 For we are what he has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to be our way of life.
Now that, as in just about any other place within NT texts one cares to examine, does not hint of some order as towards ; proper works equals or is ""necessary" to proceed one's salvation, or even to keep it...but instead, that "works" more shall be as product (and witness of) that salvation which has been already established.
Perhaps you should study the Reformers in closer detail (and try this time to actually HEAR them) along with some of the modern theologians following roughly in their footsteps, before again popping off at the mouth about alleged "heresy" which as you put it; prevents the salvation of the Protestant Christians... for it is not that they are guilty of "fragmenting" the Gospel as you say, but that they do put the operating principles in better order(!)
One can never do enough "good works" to save oneself. Not now, just as at the beginning of one's renewed relationship with God (say--prior to and then immediately after baptism) nor in times later (like- now) shall some demand for "works" be as some form of continuing performance bond which by "works" or by letter must be fulfilled.
We will either love Him, or we won't. What earthly good can any law ever be as towards love?
With the prior objections to "works" being necessary for salvation being as much as to what the definitions themselves of what those "works" may be, other than what can be seen plainly enough in scripture, discernible both there, and by the Spirit -- and more simply by love, written not in capital letters, but even in the smallest and gentlest of things...
From James 3
18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.
Continuing in the faith however, shall be The Way for "good works" to at all come about, even to the recognition of what those may be in order that we may see well enough to know what the "good works" are, so that we may do them.
From Matthew 23
From John 13
9 Simon Peter said to him, “Lord, not my feet only but also my hands and my head!”
10 Jesus said to him, “One who has bathed does not need to wash, except for the feet, but is entirely clean. And you are clean, though not all of you.”
11 For he knew who was to betray him; for this reason he said, “Not all of you are clean.”
It looks like YOU are the heretic now since you are disputing Lumen Gentium which states:
So, we have Annalex pronouncing as heretics those whom he judges by a standard NOT found in his OWN church. Guess that makes HIM the pope?
Get that boy a hat.
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