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Posted on 10/12/2013 9:34:46 AM PDT by NKP_Vet
The most common objection I get to Mary as Mother of God, especially from Fundamentalists, but not limited to them, is, “The words ‘Mother of God’ are nowhere to be found in the Bible. Therefore, I will not accept it as true.”
This line of reasoning fails in dramatic fashion when carried to its logical conclusion when we consider the central mystery of the Christian Faith, the Trinity, is not found in Scripture verbatim as well. And we could go on. The Incarnation would fall by the wayside. Essential terms we use to do theology, like homoousios (Gr.—same nature, Jesus has the “same nature” as his Father), hypostatic union, the circumincessions of the persons of the Blessed Trinity, etc. All gone! The canon of Scripture, the nature of the sacrament of Holy Matrimony, and so much more we believe as Christians would be out the door because none of these things are made explicit in Scripture.
And this is not to mention “justification by faith alone.” Can anyone agree there is just a bit of irony in the fact that the same fellow who tells me he will not accept Mary as “Mother of God” because those words “are not found in the Bible,” will accept justification by faith alone when the only time those words are found in the Bible the words “not by” are right in front of them (cf. James 2:24)?
(Excerpt) Read more at catholic.com ...
The word “catholic” means universal. Jesus created one universal church for all of mankind. The Catholic Church was established by Jesus with his words spoken in Matthew 16. Jesus asked his disciples “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” The disciples then offered various answers - “Some say John the Baptist, others Elijah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” But the question that Jesus then asked was crucial: “But who do you say that I am?”
The answer provided by Simon Peter set in motion the formation of the Catholic Church by Jesus. “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.” With this answer, Jesus established the Catholic Church with Simon Peter designated the first Pope.
“Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
Many try to imply that it was Peter’s faith on which Jesus established the Church. But closer examination of the words of Jesus reveal that the selection was of divine nature.
“For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.” His knowledge of Jesus was not the reason for Peter’s confession to the true identity but it was the fact that it had been revealed to him by God. In the words of Jesus gives Peter his new name - “The Rock”. A foundation on which his Church will be built.
Justification by faith is in the Bible. Several places, and the most referred to is in Romans 3 (pasted below). The "alone" part came from Luther and then Calvin clarifying what Paul said below about works. So here is Romans 3 with pertinent bold highlights:
9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin. 10 As it is written: “There is none righteous, no, not one; 11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. 12 They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one.” 13 “Their throat is an open tomb; With their tongues they have practiced deceit”; “The poison of asps is under their lips”; 14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.” 15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood; 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways; 17 And the way of peace they have not known.” 18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.” 19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. 29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, 30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.
Then in Ephesians 2:
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. So the NT is clear. We are Justified by faith. It is a legal declaration made by The Father based on the Son's saving actions, not our actions.
Oral word, huh? Never written down? What we call today Old Testament -- but still just "oral" word.
Stop your senseless blabbering. I gave you the roots of "sola scriptura" as to be guiding measure of faith, whether you like it or not. It's real, as Jesus Himself often said;
All the shouting with caplock on in the world, cannot change that. It is written.
It is not -- "traditions passed down through the ages" by word of mouth. That sort of thing is what got the Jews in trouble -- even as they more zealously guarded the word, and more highly regarded the written word of God, than most any number of Roman Catholics one could line up in comparison.
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."Profitable or useful" is a long way from "sola." Sola scriptura fails its own test. If you believe in sola scriptura, you can't believe in sola scriptura.
Typical stock answer. I expected nothing less.
How many times did Christ teach -- from "oral traditions"? Can you name even ONE time? On the contrary, when he went about correcting those whom were well acquainted with the Word, He used the scriptures, for they testified of Him.
He was the Word made flesh. Should we now pretend that he was the "oral tradition" made flesh?
Or the desire to remarry while still married.
Or a desire to use the Pill.
Many famous converts to Catholicism have given up secure jobs—like pastor of a Protestant church.
I think one could count on two fingers the converts to Catholicism who have devoted their time to writing against their former churches, while those who have left the Catholic Church and devoted their lives to bashing the Catholic Church in print number in the hundreds, or thousands.
There is an objectively verifiable asymmetry.
Why is it so common for those who have left the Catholic Church to exhibit all the symptoms of a guilty conscience, while those who join the Catholic Church do not?
Jesus repeatedly taught things that were not in the Scriptures. Read the Sermon on the Mount. He says more than once: “You have seen it written...But I say to you...” His teaching on marriage, his teaching on anger, his teaching on anger—in all those cases and more he taught something different from the Jewish Scriptures.
He taught “with authority,” rather than merely repeating what had been written.
And...every word and action of Jesus that we know about was communicated for decades by oral tradition before it was written down.
That was about the only time that "oral tradition" alone was foremost in play. And perhaps with Abram, until the time of Moses.
Since then, private revelation from God, one would need test with scripture -- and still should, but test it not with "SOLO scriptura", but exegesis of a wider sense, along with some room for tradition, and traditional understandings. Yet even there, as best as we can, we must let the Word do what it will, for it is His Word, and shall not return to Him void.
“”Profitable or useful” is a long way from “sola.” Sola scriptura fails its own test.”
That’s the typical, feeble response from Catholics since they don’t bother to read the whole verse, which concludes “that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.” Presumably if a person finds completion in the scripture, they need not depend on extra-biblical sources for the word of God. Hence Cyril’s eager assertion that all doctrines must have substantiation within the scripture.
After the recent run of Pope Francis articles, a poll found 58% of American Roman Catholics support a women’s “right” to “choose.” So please don’t pull the high and mighty card. Shall we discuss the reason many alter boys leave the RC church? Or why there are thousands of RC schools closing across the country. It is called endemic problems not just doctrinal.
Different than Jewish scriptures? Not at all. He taught what was in the Word previously, as He was Himself the Word, although much of what He revealed had been previously hidden in plain sight as it were, but the sense of it still there, albeit best discernible by way of Spirit.
What He was doing was correcting the misconceptions and misapplications of the law, whenever He would say in a corrective/adjusting manner, "But I say to you". Fair enough?
That what He spoke differed in ways from what was more widely taught concerning scripture, does not mean He was introducing new principles, as much as He was expounding upon and illuminating the deeper, and thus true and actual meanings of what had already been carefully and deliberately, painstakingly revealed, over the course of many centuries, piece by piece, line upon line, precept upon precept, to Abraham, Moses & the prophets.
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
13 But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
Had God been, up until the time He was born into this realm in the form of a man, holding out on the Jews, short-changing them, failing to provide to them that which they should pay heed to -- or was it more like it was all "there" already, but veiled from sight & conceptual grasp of "flesh"? I say to you and all, that it is still much hidden in that manner, much as Simon was told, "blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood did not reveal it to thee...".
Even when He did speak, teaching the nature of His Father's kingdom, He spoke in parables, which few at the time could understand.
As I already made note of, when He rebuked such as the Pharisees and Sadducees, and also when speaking to elders of Israel who knew the scriptures, He used the scriptures, and regardless what you say-- upon many occasions He didrepeat the scripture if not word-for-word, then closely enough, but more importantly -- perfectly, as to truth and meaning, which had been there previously, all along. Rebuking Satan himself, He spoke not by and with his own authority, but that of His Father, as it is written.
Decades? Barely...
But what are you driving at, what are you hinting at, precisely? Is there something important missing? Just WHAT is it, that was only transmitted "orally", that did not make it into either NT scripture itself, or that can be discerned by some careful study of the earliest NT church.
Should I accept things arising only centuries later, first peeking out a bit with some slight mentions, but then inflating over centuries time; to be this long lost "oral tradition" Romanist apologists are always hinting around about, when push comes to shove in RC efforts to smash "sola scriptura" as ultimate authority (touchstone for doctrine, if you will) and replace it with their own singular [and specious] claim to sola ecclesia?
Nice try, but I've seen that movie before.
Using decent exegesis ("tradition" can assist in this) rather than an eisegesis using prybars and thumbscrews to torture the texts into yielding confirmation for what extra-biblical "traditions" later developed, outside of both scripture, and ratification by way of unanimous consent of earliest patristic fathers.
ROIOS Charms? With saint, pope, and relic shapes inside? I've never tried them. I heard that once you eat them, they're with you forever, binding and loosing at will...
You are ignoring the the relevant phrase “is profitable..”
What it is profitable for does not change the point that it is profitable or useful for..
This is not at all close to meaning sola.
A lime is profitable or useful for a perfect cuba libre. Sugar is profitable, useful for a perfect cake...
Your text proof fails. And with it sola scriptura.
You have changed the subject. My original point is objectively verifiable.
BTW: When did I ever say the majority of American bishops have not been a bunch of witless, spineless careerists who have made a shambles of the Catholic Church in America?
You are ignoring the the relevant phrase “is profitable..” TRUTH in Scripture... and depending on traditions of men. Isaiah was right about you guys, too!
Mark 7:6 He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:
“‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
7 They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules.’
8 You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions.”
9 And he continued, “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and mother,’ and, ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’ 11 But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is Corban (that is, devoted to God)— 12 then you no longer let them do anything for their father or mother. 13 Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.” ...
***
Colossians 2: ... 8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces[a] of this world rather than on Christ. ... 2 Thessalonians 2: ... 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works.He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
13 But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. 14 He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
The parts you’ve highlighted show Paul discussing faith versus works of the law thus:
“Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.”
Jews and Gentiles, both had to show faith and that is what Paul discusses in Hebrews. In every instance mentioned in Hebrews faith is connected to action, visible, concrete action. Over and again Paul says, “By faith...” this and such was done.
The people named were not doing some “works” to be saved but their faith was alive and active, actions followed faith such that faith without action or works was a dead faith.
So James said both faith and works was necessary. (2:24)
In this Ephesians agrees. “...not our actions.” Indeed. It is not actions OR faith but actions AND faith.
Then she wouldn’t have used the same exact word. Sorry. You just refuse to use logic here.
Matthew 22:29 But Jesus answered them, “You are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God.
Mark 12:24 Jesus said to them, “Is this not the reason you are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God?
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