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There is something strange going on in the Vatican
LifeSiteNews ^ | Mon Oct 07, 2013 | Hilary White, Rome Correspondent

Posted on 10/09/2013 8:25:55 AM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM

There is something strange going on in the Vatican

by Hilary White, Rome Correspondent



TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; Religion & Culture; Theology
KEYWORDS: papacy; pope; popefrancis; vatican
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To: stonehouse01; oh8eleven

Thank you for saving me the time.

0811, what he said......


181 posted on 10/11/2013 12:18:19 PM PDT by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of faith....)
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To: stonehouse01
I have never seen one example of a Catholic on this forum engage in name calling and I have seen plenty of engagement on doctrine. Catholics are usually referred to derisively as “you guys”.

"Bible-thumpers."
"Snake-handlers.
"Brain-dead bibliolators."

Sure. Never happens. Ever. It's all my imagination. Or I suppose I'm lying because I'm so mean.[/sarcasm]

But meanwhile, "you guys" is a nasty ethnic slur. Suuuuuure it is.[/sarcasm]

182 posted on 10/11/2013 12:20:28 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (The Left: speaking power to truth since Shevirat HaKelim.)
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To: yldstrk
"YOPIOS

eh?"

Your organization calls that "your own personal interpretation of Scripture". It is normally used to denigrate those who identify errors with Rome's doctrines. In this case, you have joined with the believers in Christ, alone and questioned Rome.

183 posted on 10/11/2013 12:25:26 PM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: stonehouse01
I have never seen one example of a Catholic on this forum engage in name calling

REALLY?!?

Seriously?

184 posted on 10/11/2013 12:25:33 PM PDT by Gamecock (Many Atheists take the stand: "There is no God AND I hate Him.")
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To: CTrent1564
Personally, my favorite methodology of Biblical Scholarship is the “Patristic Methodology” which both my Navarre and Ignatius Catholic NT rely on.

An Ignatian, huh? De Lubac, Von Balthasar, Von Speyr? That explains it.

As for Evolution, that is a Scientific question, not theological, and if you reject the basic premise that animals and other living organisms “evolve” that is your business and right. I don’t. It is just I don’t believe that believing in the basic notion of evolution means that I am an atheist-pagan-Communist and that believing in the basic theory of Evolution means I reject the theology rooted in Genesis that God created everything from nothing which is the first statement of the Nicene Creed......I believe in God the Father Almighty maker of heaven and earth and things visible and invisible.....

We're not talking about "the theology of Genesis." We're also not talking about whatever is going on now in the fully-created world. We're talking about the veracity of the Genesis narrative and the historicity of the events described.

:Sigh: I know from past experience that you won't understand this, but I'll try for the hundred millionth time anyway.

Just pretend (humor me, please) that some scientist came to you and said that J*sus was not born of a virgin because such a thing is scientifically impossible. Now I hope you will agree that it is fully within the province of science to tell us how babies are conceived and come into the world. So . . . are you going to roll over and say "all right; that's science, so I guess it didn't really happen, but I still believe in the theology of the virgin birth narratives."

Are you going to say that?

No you are not. You are going to become, just for the moment, an "illiterate, inbred trailer park redneck" and insist that G-d can do anything and that this was a "miracle," and the Holy Mother Church teaches this (your version of "Bobble sez!") and that's good enough for you, and you feel sorry for him because he doesn't have the "gift of faith."

Now come on, admit it. That's exactly what you'd say.

Now, what is the difference in my belief in the literal veracity of the stories narrated in the first eleven chapters of Genesis and your belief in the scientifically-impossible virgin birth because your Church or your "new testament" teach it? What is the difference . . . huh? Why is it so foreign to you to consider the possibility that just as the chrstian "gxd" allegedly "intervened" to bring about a pregnancy without the participation of a human male, even so (lehavdil!) G-d created everything from nothing in six days in a purely supernatural manner, after which the laws of nature became fully operational?

Really, what is the difference? Is Genesis 1-11 somehow metaphysically "more impossible" than any other miracle/supernatural phenomenon? Just what is Catholics' deal here? I've never seen any theistic evolutionist Catholic try to find any purely natural means used by the chrstian "gxd" to bring about the "virginal conception" (such as in vitro fertilization or something). Really, what is the difference? Why not be satisfied with "gxd" using purely natural means to bring this about just as you do with the creation story, or the rest of Genesis 1-11?

I'll bet you don't even see the irony. Your mind is just so locked into the possibility of the supernatural and miracles when it comes to the "new testament" and equally locked into naturalism when it comes to the "old."

Well prepare to learn a lesson, because I'm going to tell you exactly why Catholics will insist on one scientific impossibility while denying another (after all, it's a "scientific impossibility," isn't it?). You don't even have to thank me.

It's sociological. Yep. That's it right there. Bluntly, the "virgin birth" inspired the intellectuals of the Middle Ages and the "glories of chrstendom" whereas the miracles of Genesis are the "trailer park miracles." And for that reason alone you can't even consider the possibility that they may be just as literal as all the other miracles you believe in supposedly are. "Virgin birth=Thomism; Genesis=trailer trash. And you aren't trailer trash, are you? Never mind that the "virgin birth" and the "resurrection" and the "loaves and fishes" and "walking on water" are all scientifically impossible; indeed, not one whit less so than the world being supernaturally created in six days.

Think that's not true? Go to any Catholic forum. Any attacks on evolution or affirmations of Genesis are greeted with cries of "that's Protestant!!!!!" No argument. No logic. No reasoning. Just "that's Protestant!" Now what does that tell you?

Before closing, one incontrovertible fact: whatever else you may think of what I have said, it is undeniable that the fathers of Trent were literalist creationists. The Catholic Church of that era taught creationism. The contemporary Catholic Church rejects creationism. The Catholic teaching on creation has changed. Truth in advertising, dude.

185 posted on 10/11/2013 12:52:45 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (The Left: speaking power to truth since Shevirat HaKelim.)
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To: stonehouse01
The Pope is not “between” a person and Jesus. The implication is that Catholics are not true Christians; this is a serious judgment.

I am starting to find this to be true - we defend the Faith and the defense gets twisted beyond belief, often with ad hominem attacks thrown in.

There is no twisting of anything...Your accusations are baseless...We get our information from your religion...

Wishing to restrain and to dispel the violent hurricane of evils which, as We lament from the bottom of Our heart, are everywhere afflicting the Church, Mary desires to transform Our sadness into joy. The foundation of all Our confidence, as you know well, Venerable Brethren, is found in the Blessed Virgin Mary. For, God has committed to Mary the treasury of all good things, in order that everyone may know that through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation. For this is His will, that we obtain everything through Mary.[3]

This comes from the top dog of your religion...Not only is this cyclical a theological lie, it clearly is the position of your religion that without going thru Mary, there is no salvation, for anyone...

Here's the bad news

186 posted on 10/11/2013 1:15:58 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: Zionist Conspirator

Excellent points...


187 posted on 10/11/2013 1:25:06 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: Gamecock

Maybe it’s true. After all, all those threads that look like swiss cheese due to deleted comments, are the ones with the name calling by Catholics.

Since the RM pulled those comments, it’s possible that someone did not see them.


188 posted on 10/11/2013 1:27:52 PM PDT by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of faith....)
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To: stonehouse01; metmom
I know all about free will and agree with the philosophy.
That was my first point ... I can only accept a God who created all things, then never intervened.
But what I'm still waiting for, is metmom's proof to her claim that fasting works.
189 posted on 10/11/2013 1:48:17 PM PDT by oh8eleven (RVN '67-'68)
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To: piusv; stonehouse01

An interesting encyclical is “Cum Ex Apostolatus Officio,” by Pope Paul IV, 1559. It deals with “what happens when a Pope or any other person in authority is a heretic?” It basically says that by virtue of their heresy they have no authority and anything they say or do is null and void, even if they have been elected to the office and have been installed. Since it is possible to have a man be elected Pope and have everything he says and does be null and void, it is possible that the Chair could be “vacant” without being vacant. Of course, the Encyclical goes on to say that he should be removed from his post, but it doesn’t say how or by whom. Evidently, the possiblity was presented that the Pope could be a heretic, but it wasn’t seriously considered, because there is no resulting explanation of how to enforce it - especially if all the Cardinals are heretics, too (which I don’t believe is the case in the Church today). I believe there are a handful of Cardinals left who believe as the pre-VII Church believed, and they are the leaders of the Remnant. I doubt that they look at themselves that way, but I do.


190 posted on 10/11/2013 1:59:12 PM PDT by nanetteclaret (Unreconstructed "Elderly Kooky Type" Catholic Texan)
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To: nanetteclaret

I have not read that encyclical....thank you for the rec.


191 posted on 10/11/2013 2:12:51 PM PDT by piusv
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To: oh8eleven; stonehouse01
That was my first point ... I can only accept a God who created all things, then never intervened.

Why not? Why couldn't or wouldn't God intervene? In that case, Jesus never came. He never died for the forgiveness of our sins. He never sent the Holy Spirit. He never commanded us to pray for the things we need, as in the Lord's prayer.

If you don't believe in a God who intervenes, you don't believe in the God of the Bible.

But what I'm still waiting for, is metmom's proof to her claim that fasting works.

There are plenty of examples of prayer and fasting in the OT. Jesus Himself fasted for 40 days in the wilderness.

I have seen people get saved as a result of people fasting. There are three people who I prayed and fasted for personally who accepted Christ.

192 posted on 10/11/2013 2:23:21 PM PDT by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of faith....)
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To: Gamecock

I haven’t witnessed it but have avoided the religious threads because of their general vitriolic tone until recently, so I msut be wrong.

In any case, all ought to try to stick to the arguments and avoid ad hominem attacks and mean spirited generalizing.


193 posted on 10/11/2013 4:22:21 PM PDT by stonehouse01 (Equal rights for unborn women)
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To: Iscool

“...We get our accusations from your religion...”

Please state which encyclical this is found in, it seems like a distortion. No Pope would state that we obtain everything through Mary.


194 posted on 10/11/2013 4:27:37 PM PDT by stonehouse01 (Equal rights for unborn women)
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To: Dutchboy88

well I don’t question Rome’s doctrines

I freely admit I consider the new Pope to be a bit of a loose cannon


195 posted on 10/11/2013 5:37:01 PM PDT by yldstrk (My heroes have always been cowboys)
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To: Zionist Conspirator

Zionist:

I do accept the Virgin Birth, to deny it would make one unorthodox in terms of Christology and not Christian. It is a tenant of the Faith. No Church Council in the early Church has ever taught “Creationism or Evolution.” When the Church makes statements about Science, it is outside of its sphere so to speak. The Church has the authority to speak about Faith questions, not scientific questions, although a many a great Catholic Priests and Theologians were great Scientist.

De Lubac and Von Balthasar are modern theologians. If you mean Ignatius of Antioch, yes, he would indeed be Patristic. So by Patristic, I am talking about the Church Fathers in the Western-Roman-Latin Church till the time of St. Isidore of Seville [died circa 636 AD] and in the Byzantine-Greek-Eastern Church, till the time of St. John Damascene [died 749 AD]. So my primary mode of reading Sacred Scripture is to read it in the context of the Church Fathers in the periods prior to the dates above, which of course would include the Councils of Nicea 325AD, Constantinople 381 AD, Ephesus 431AD and CHalcedon 451AD.

The Historical Critical Method has the benefit of looking at recent manuscript findings, i.e. Dead Sea Scrolls and some of the NT fragments that were found in the last 100 or so years as well as using archeological findings that can help us better understand aspects of the time of CHrist and the Apostles. However, in no context do I take the Historical scholarship and use it for primary commentary on the OT and NT.

So not trying to be flippant, but by Patristic I am referring to the Church Fathers and the theological writings from that period as my primary mode of reading Sacred Scripture.


196 posted on 10/11/2013 6:35:07 PM PDT by CTrent1564
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To: stonehouse01

Not generalizing. I have references showing the vitriol spewed by many Roman Catholics.


197 posted on 10/11/2013 7:05:47 PM PDT by Gamecock (Many Atheists take the stand: "There is no God AND I hate Him.")
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To: stonehouse01
Here
198 posted on 10/11/2013 9:19:41 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: metmom
If you don't believe in a God who intervenes, you don't believe in the God of the Bible.
Au contraire, if you do believe in a God who intervenes, then you have to believe either he/she/it was powerless to stop all of man's pain and suffering throughout time, or chose to ignore it.
I believe neither.

I have seen people get saved as a result of people fasting.
Someone finding Christ is not the context we were discussing. Fail.
199 posted on 10/12/2013 5:46:47 AM PDT by oh8eleven (RVN '67-'68)
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To: Iscool

4. (encyclical on the rosary) Begins:
But since the salvation of our race was accomplished by the mystery of the cross...

Without reading the entirety of #4, isolating this excerpt of #4 causes it to be misunderstood because it is out of context. When reading all of #4 it becomes clear that the Pope is referring to Mary’s free will assent at the aunnuncation to be the mother of God.

“Mary is the intermediary through whom is distributed unto to us this immense treasury of mercies gathered by God.”

The Pope is simply highlightling the FACT that because Mary said yes, she became the interim intermediary (i.e., she formed Him in her womb, kept Him safe during infancy and toddlerhood, so he He could grow up and do His work of redemption. Without Mary’s yes, Jesus wouldn’t be here; that is why Mary’s function is intermediary.

The Pope is not saying that Mary actually DOES/DID the salvific work that ONLY Jesus could accomplish: rather, if Mary hadn’t said Yes, Jesus wouldn’t have been incarnated at all, and she made it possible, and we thank her for it.


200 posted on 10/12/2013 5:56:38 AM PDT by stonehouse01 (Equal rights for unborn women)
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