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To: daniel1212
Not sure what your argument is.

You said, ... i disagree with the premise that man is damned from birth due to Adam’s sin...

John 3:18 says:

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

I maintain that 'condemned already' IS the state of man due to Adam's sin.


Romans 5:12 KJV

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:


Yeah, Catholics... this means MARY as well!

25 posted on 10/08/2013 5:37:10 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie
Thanks for the clarification. And on my part let me clarify that man not being is damned from birth due to Adam’s sin is not saying they do not have a depraved sinful nature and thus will be culpable for sin, and also suffer death as a consequence of Adam's sin, but that they are not personally responsible for Adam's sin.

And that final damnation is always said to be based on what the person themselves did, not their forefathers. Thus it would be inconsistent with God's jurisprudence to send infants to Hell due to what Adam did .

One of the most repeated teachings in Scripture is,

"The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin." (Deuteronomy 24:16; cf. 2Ki 14:5,6; 2Ch 25:4; Jer 31:29,30; Eze 18:20)

"Put to death" refers to actual punishment for sin, not the general effects of the actions of others, good or bad, which all enter into.

And,

the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

As for for the condemnation of Jn. 3:18, "have not believed" indicates moral culpability, as seen in vs 19-21 ("doeth evil," "neither cometh,") that of man's negative choice in response to light (even conscience) because their works were evil.

"And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God." (John 3:19-21)

Certainly infants do wrong things: if they could they would pop you one for taking away their toy, for they are disposed to disobey moral commands, but as in giving, (2Cor. 8:12) judgment is "according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not," and thus "unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." (Luke 12:48)

If infants have no moral cognizance to be able to make moral choices, and eternal judgment is based upon what one personally does, and thus the children are not to be sentenced based upon what their fathers did, then it hardly follows that infants must be damned due to the sin of Adam.

The premise that they carry guilt, even if not personal, is what is behind required infant baptism and speculation about Limbo, and the inability for Rome to officially teach all infants enter Heaven (even if none go to Hell).

Calvinists are divided on this, some holding God elects them all and others saying some go to Hell.

As for Rm. 5:12:

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

by Adam sin did enter the world, and thus all die "through the offence of one many be dead," (v. 15) and thus "many were made sinners" as they acted out that sinful nature - even though "sin is not imputed when there is no law."

In other words, i see that "the judgment was by one to condemnation" due to having a dead depraved nature that will be personally culpable for sin and eternal judgment, while in this life all, suffer the general effects of the judgment.

The corollary is that "by the obedience of One shall many be made righteous." (Romans 5:19)

However, "death" affects all, even infants and nature which are not culpable, while eternal damnation is based on what one personally has done, and eternal life also requires a faith response, enabled by God's grace.

28 posted on 10/08/2013 8:00:01 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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